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VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

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Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#51

Post by mtgx »

aresant wrote: post #46

This guy isn't the "fall guy" or just a poor engineer hung out to try instead of an exec, he deserves to go to prison based on the material facts of his plea: 1) He was the central figure in engineering the device. 2) He understood exactly what he was doing and made repeated efforts to perpetuate the lie to the government and EPA. 3) He led efforts to damage control and roll out an update to consumers under the guise…

I don't think he's innocent, but I think there were others much higher-up than he was that were aware of this and actively contributed in the fraud.

Also, didn't VW do this in Europe, too? Are we to believe this guy in the U.S. is responsible for the emissions cheating in Europe, too? At the very least top EU execs would've been aware of it, even if he was the creator and the evangelist for the device.

As far as the U.S. federal government goes, I doubt we'll see anyone else charged. They've already settled with VW, and this guy taking the fall was likely part of the settlement. We may still see some states continue their cases against VW, but I wouldn't be surprised if the DoJ pressures them to drop their cases.

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#52

Post by SwellJoe »

aianus wrote: post #47
SwellJoe wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The emissions standards are already a dangerous compromise; we should have been making hard decisions about emissions 20, even 30, years ago...they've gotten stricter because they were disastrously lenient in the past, and we see the results of it. The reasons someone lying about emissions tests are really as bad is it sounds: - If one manufacturer lies, other manufacturers are forced to either lie, or lose customers…

Diesel soot doesn't cause climate change, that's CO2 which is not regulated. I think it's ridiculous (at least in Canada) that I have to pay $30 every other year to have my car emissions tested while city buses and trucks spew black clouds unopposed. Just feels like a useless cash grab.

CO2 is regulated, and so is NOx.

Buses and trucks are also regulated and have to adhere to emissions standards, and get tested regularly; at least, in the US, they are regulated more heavily than autos (or, at least have more paperwork and legal obligations involved in driving them, and have a higher tax burden).

People riding a bus are, in aggregate, producing much less waste than if they were all driving automobiles...so, it's OK that a bus produces quite a bit more waste than a single automobile. And, I might even argue we aren't going far enough to incentivize people to take mass transit rather than driving themselves.

The cargo industry is responsible for a tremendous amount of emissions; freight ships account for millions of cars worth of emissions, in fact. That's definitely an area for improvement on a worldwide level. I'm in no way saying there aren't other sources of emissions, or that regulating auto emissions effectively will solve the problem. Merely that ignoring emissions from cars will exacerbate what is already the single biggest problem humanity faces going forward.

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#53

Post by toast0 »

24gttghh wrote: post #45
toast0 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure, you could go to trial and find yourself not guilty, but then the prosecution files an appeal and you have to keep paying a lawyer. In the US, the prosecution can't appeal a verdict in a criminal trial. In some cases, you could be tried for the same crime in a different jurisdiction though (likely with a different prosecution as well).

I believe the Double Jeopardy clause of the 5th Amendment of the US Constitution prevents such things as being tried for the same crime twice...

From skimming on Wikipediea, there are exceptions: you can be tried for the same crime as a federal crime and a state crime if it is criminal in both jurisdictions (although not as a federal crime and a Puerto Rico crime). You can also be tried for a crime multiple times if earlier trials were declared a mistrial (some exceptions apply).

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#54

Post by slavik81 »

superuser2 wrote: post #20
pweissbrod wrote: post #17

Given the minimal information in this article you cant help but wonder if this is a blatant attempt at designating someone to take the fall for a larger conspiracy, or if higher-level indictments are on the way. At a company like VW decisions like this are never made at the engineering level.

>decisions like this are never made at the engineering level. True, but the law has long held an obligation to "fall on your sword" disobeying illegal orders, even if it comes at great personal cost. See the lack of success of the "just following orders" defense at the Nuremberg trials.

It's also the first principle of engineering ethics. Your first duty is to the public, followed by your client, followed by your employer. Which means that sometimes you will have to say "no" to your employer.

Yes. There can be consequences. You could lose your job. Acting ethically despite potential personal consequences is what is demanded of a professional engineer. If you're not willing to uphold the code of ethics, you shouldn't become a licensed engineer.

The licensing requirement is supposed to help people refuse unethical demands. The business needs a license, and anyone they would hire to replace him needs a license. The engineering professional association thus has some leverage to enforce standards. Probably not enough to entirely eliminate personal consequences, but they at least reduce the number of unscrupulous people you have to compete against.

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#55

Post by aresant »

mtgx wrote: post #51
aresant wrote: post #46

This guy isn't the "fall guy" or just a poor engineer hung out to try instead of an exec, he deserves to go to prison based on the material facts of his plea: 1) He was the central figure in engineering the device. 2) He understood exactly what he was doing and made repeated efforts to perpetuate the lie to the government and EPA. 3) He led efforts to damage control and roll out an update to consumers under the guise…

I don't think he's innocent, but I think there were others much higher-up than he was that were aware of this and actively contributed in the fraud. Also, didn't VW do this in Europe, too? Are we to believe this guy in the U.S. is responsible for the emissions cheating in Europe, too? At the very least top EU execs would've been aware of it, even if he was the creator and the evangelist for the device. As far as the…

"Also, didn't VW do this in Europe, too? Are we to believe this guy in the U.S. is responsible for the emissions cheating in Europe, too?"

Yes, this is the guy responsible for Europe too. Check out the justice.gov story I linked in parent for richer summary:

- He was an employee in Germany from 1983 - 2008

- He led the effort when he realized they couldn't engineer an engine to meet US standards in 2006

- He moved to the USA in 2008 and furthered the fraud as "Leader of Diesel Competence"

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#56

Post by trhway »

It is hard to imagine that a large number of reasonable tech and business people would do it that blatantly for so long. After all it isn't Mafia nor government nor banks. I wonder whether it was done as some temporary "fix" back then, just to meet schedule/KPIs/etc., which just naturally became a "feature".

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#57

Post by SilasX »

ardacinar wrote: post #4

Something away from the scandal itself, non-American here and I don't get plea deals. I mean, normally, a trial can result in acquittal even if the defendant admits their guilt if there's very strong objective evidence(DNA records etc.) disproving it. There has existed previous cases where some new evidence surfaced years after a plea deal and the defendant, previously found guilty, was released. So, why does a plea…

It's the same concept as insurance: it's often better to take a guaranteed loss of X, than 10% chance of a loss of 10X -- or even 8X, due to a loss aversion.

So, let's say that you're in a group of 10 people and one of them will suffer an 8X loss, but you don't know who. You each set aside X, and pay 9X to the guy who turns out to take the loss. (Refund of contribution plus 8X.) You pay X for the overhead of managing the arrangement. Boom, you reinvented insurance.

There are cases where the evidence is strong, but neither side likes the uncertainty of leaving it up to the trial, so they make the above tradeoff, and save on the costs.

As for your question about "why not have a mini-trial anyway", the prosecution is required to disclose their evidence at the allocution, so there (some level) is transparency about the basis for guilt; but if you have to commit to the regular trial with all its procedures and protections, then that defeats most of the purpose.

Often, people confusedly moralize about plea bargains, when their real objection is that the government could credibly claim to be able to get an 8X penalty at all, which seems excessive given the facts of the case.

Also, not just an American thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plea_bargain#Use_in_civil_law_...

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#58

Post by Hydraulix989 »

aresant wrote: post #46

This guy isn't the "fall guy" or just a poor engineer hung out to try instead of an exec, he deserves to go to prison based on the material facts of his plea: 1) He was the central figure in engineering the device. 2) He understood exactly what he was doing and made repeated efforts to perpetuate the lie to the government and EPA. 3) He led efforts to damage control and roll out an update to consumers under the guise…

Individual engineers don't make product decisions at big companies like Volkswagen. When I worked as an engineer at a big company, I couldn't even use a different text editor.

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#59

Post by dexterdog »

TallGuyShort wrote: post #32

This feels a bit like the guy on Better Off Ted who always gets paid to admit fault, claim he has a drug problem, and then go to rehab so the company can move on blame-free.

Or the professional inmate hired by Walt in Breaking Bad.

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#60

Post by ramenmeal »

Hydraulix989 wrote: post #58
aresant wrote: post #46

This guy isn't the "fall guy" or just a poor engineer hung out to try instead of an exec, he deserves to go to prison based on the material facts of his plea: 1) He was the central figure in engineering the device. 2) He understood exactly what he was doing and made repeated efforts to perpetuate the lie to the government and EPA. 3) He led efforts to damage control and roll out an update to consumers under the guise…

Individual engineers don't make product decisions at big companies like Volkswagen. When I worked as an engineer at a big company, I couldn't even use a different text editor.

"James Robert Liang, leader of diesel competence for VW"

He's not an individual engineer, he was a team lead from the sound of it. Also, your experience "at a big company" has no relevance here.

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