Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

detroitnews.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 156 posts

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#41

Post by toast0 »

frandroid wrote: post #29
ardacinar wrote: post #4

Something away from the scandal itself, non-American here and I don't get plea deals. I mean, normally, a trial can result in acquittal even if the defendant admits their guilt if there's very strong objective evidence(DNA records etc.) disproving it. There has existed previous cases where some new evidence surfaced years after a plea deal and the defendant, previously found guilty, was released. So, why does a plea…

American criminal trials are so costly in terms of money and time that the process itself is a form of punishment. Sure, you could go to trial and find yourself not guilty, but then the prosecution files an appeal and you have to keep paying a lawyer. If there's a reasonable chance of you being found guilty, the prosecutor will be happy to strike a reasonable deal with you, so you can get it over with and carry on wi…

> Sure, you could go to trial and find yourself not guilty, but then the prosecution files an appeal and you have to keep paying a lawyer.

In the US, the prosecution can't appeal a verdict in a criminal trial. In some cases, you could be tried for the same crime in a different jurisdiction though (likely with a different prosecution as well).

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#42

Post by jmde »

superuser2 wrote: post #20
pweissbrod wrote: post #17

Given the minimal information in this article you cant help but wonder if this is a blatant attempt at designating someone to take the fall for a larger conspiracy, or if higher-level indictments are on the way. At a company like VW decisions like this are never made at the engineering level.

>decisions like this are never made at the engineering level. True, but the law has long held an obligation to "fall on your sword" disobeying illegal orders, even if it comes at great personal cost. See the lack of success of the "just following orders" defense at the Nuremberg trials.

I don't know if I entirely agree with the "fall on your sword" argument. Sometimes it applies, but not always. There's definitely a grey area. At some point, the leverage becomes coercive, and to deny that allows force to hide in the guise of distributed responsibility. It allows the corrupt to shift blame onto middlemen who are sometimes just as much the victims of force as those down the line.

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#43

Post by legitster »

I imagine executives are technically innocent, in that they gave engineers very specific requirements within certain parameters, and asked them to get it done by any means necessary. And then the executives were more than happy to be kept in the dark about how it was done. I can't imagine that the executives would have even been technically competent to understand what had happened. But they also created a dead end set of objectives for the engineers to carry out, and no avenue for realism to work its way back up the channel.

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#44

Post by SilasX »

WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #40

Really, the engineer is the fall guy. Yes he's at fault but what kind of QA system does a billion dollar car company have that one person carried on a sham for decades. No way he was alone! Top management needs to be grilled on what really happened. At the very least the VP of the division that manged the emission controls for the company needs to be charged with some felony. I bet that If he would have said somethin…

Note that this is also an American employee, and there is certainly still blame to assign at the head offices in Germany, to both technical employees and upper management.

Figure I might as well ask it here: how does it happen in Germany? If you go on reddit, you get inundated every day with tales of how strong their unions and labor protections are, and how seriously they take professional ethics and accreditation. Why didn't they feel they had the power to object to a plan like this?

Edit: I stand corrected; the DoJ release says he was working in Germany and so should have been covered by those protections:

"According to the plea agreement, from 1983 until May 2008, Liang was an employee of Volkswagen AG (VW), working in its diesel development department in Wolfsburg, Germany."

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/volkswagen-engineer-pleads-gu...

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#45

Post by 24gttghh »

toast0 wrote: post #41
frandroid wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American criminal trials are so costly in terms of money and time that the process itself is a form of punishment. Sure, you could go to trial and find yourself not guilty, but then the prosecution files an appeal and you have to keep paying a lawyer. If there's a reasonable chance of you being found guilty, the prosecutor will be happy to strike a reasonable deal with you, so you can get it over with and carry on wi…

> Sure, you could go to trial and find yourself not guilty, but then the prosecution files an appeal and you have to keep paying a lawyer. In the US, the prosecution can't appeal a verdict in a criminal trial. In some cases, you could be tried for the same crime in a different jurisdiction though (likely with a different prosecution as well).

I believe the Double Jeopardy clause of the 5th Amendment of the US Constitution prevents such things as being tried for the same crime twice...

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#46

Post by aresant »

This guy isn't the "fall guy" or just a poor engineer hung out to try instead of an exec, he deserves to go to prison based on the material facts of his plea:

1) He was the central figure in engineering the device.

2) He understood exactly what he was doing and made repeated efforts to perpetuate the lie to the government and EPA.

3) He led efforts to damage control and roll out an update to consumers under the guise of improved performance, but really to cover his own ass when the software got stuck in "testing mode" and deteriorated engine components.

4) He lied to the US government when confronted and led efforts with conspirators to bury.

I am going to guess that his relatively short 5-year plea also comes at the price of turning state's evidence on his often mention "co-conspirators".

I'd say it's probably a little preliminary for us to assume that only a single engineer is going to wind up behind bars for this, just because he's first in doesn't mean he's last out!

More data here:

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/volkswagen-engineer-pleads-gu...

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#47

Post by aianus »

SwellJoe wrote: post #23
jasonkostempski wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to play devil's advocate, maybe the requirements really are way over the line. In that case I wouldn't hold any grudges. Just because something is classified a felony doesn't mean it's morally wrong. Edit: To clarify, I'm not suggesting this guy taking the dive for the execs is ok, just that someone lying about emission test results may not be as horrible as they're trying to make it sound.

The emissions standards are already a dangerous compromise; we should have been making hard decisions about emissions 20, even 30, years ago...they've gotten stricter because they were disastrously lenient in the past, and we see the results of it. The reasons someone lying about emissions tests are really as bad is it sounds: - If one manufacturer lies, other manufacturers are forced to either lie, or lose customers…

Diesel soot doesn't cause climate change, that's CO2 which is not regulated.

I think it's ridiculous (at least in Canada) that I have to pay $30 every other year to have my car emissions tested while city buses and trucks spew black clouds unopposed. Just feels like a useless cash grab.

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#48

Post by toast0 »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #19
jasonkostempski wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to play devil's advocate, maybe the requirements really are way over the line. In that case I wouldn't hold any grudges. Just because something is classified a felony doesn't mean it's morally wrong. Edit: To clarify, I'm not suggesting this guy taking the dive for the execs is ok, just that someone lying about emission test results may not be as horrible as they're trying to make it sound.

I'd say that causing 11 million cars to spew pollution into the atmosphere against regulations is fairly repugnant from a moral perspective. It's not different than him going around the back of a chemical plant that produces toxic byproducts, and opening a valve that releases toxins into a river when he knows the inspectors aren't watching. edit: actually saw the number of cars.

Regarding emissions, it's a tradeoff: increased engine temperature increases NOx emissions, but also increases fuel economy, decreasing carbon emissions. I was unable to quickly find a consensus on which type of emission is worse or how to weigh one versus another.

Regarding regulatory compliance, defeat devices are clearly unacceptable; if the regulated requirements are considered inappropriate for whatever reason, they should be challenged through political or legal process, not by detecting test conditions and altering behavior.

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#49

Post by mulmen »

superuser2 wrote: post #20
pweissbrod wrote: post #17

Given the minimal information in this article you cant help but wonder if this is a blatant attempt at designating someone to take the fall for a larger conspiracy, or if higher-level indictments are on the way. At a company like VW decisions like this are never made at the engineering level.

>decisions like this are never made at the engineering level. True, but the law has long held an obligation to "fall on your sword" disobeying illegal orders, even if it comes at great personal cost. See the lack of success of the "just following orders" defense at the Nuremberg trials.

Were soldiers on trial in Nuremberg? Seems to me everyone was at least a "middle manager". The comparison is hyperbolic and I don't see the similarity here. VW is German? Is that what we're working on?

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#50

Post by mulmen »

callesgg wrote: post #33
superuser2 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>decisions like this are never made at the engineering level. True, but the law has long held an obligation to "fall on your sword" disobeying illegal orders, even if it comes at great personal cost. See the lack of success of the "just following orders" defense at the Nuremberg trials.

With that logic you can blame a sales man for selling the car to a customer who planed to drive it in the US. There is a undefined line between following orders and following the law. The sales man does not know that it is illegal to sell the car. It is his own responsibility to not commit crimes. To not commit crimes one must know the definition of what a crime is. That definition can be found in the law book. In th…

Do you really think VW salespeople should go to jail for this? Should salespeople do their own emissions testing? Should they all buy multiple versions of the same car and crash it to see if it's really safe? How does that system work? VW has a clear set of emissions rules to follow because they build the cars, why should the salespeople be on the hook? This isn't Tesla, VW salespeople don't even work for VW.
Post reply on HN