VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal • Hacker News Board

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#21

Post by e28eta » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 6:40 PM UTC

jasonkostempski wrote: post #8

scrumper wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There should be some executives losing their jobs and freedom, if this guy is pleading guilty to several felonies. He wasn't acting on his own initiative.

Just to play devil's advocate, maybe the requirements really are way over the line. In that case I wouldn't hold any grudges. Just because something is classified a felony doesn't mean it's morally wrong. Edit: To clarify, I'm not suggesting this guy taking the dive for the execs is ok, just that someone lying about emission test results may not be as horrible as they're trying to make it sound.

I don't think it's that VW can't meet the requirements, it's that they don't think it'll be as commercially successful.

I think it's the tension between emissions requirements and customer demand for powerful vehicles. As allowable emissions decrease over the years, which automaker will be successful shipping a vehicle that has less power than the previous model?

And that's the whole reason for emissions requirements, left to their own devices, automakers and customers weren't getting it done.

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#22

Post by pavel_lishin » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 6:40 PM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #5

scrumper wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There should be some executives losing their jobs and freedom, if this guy is pleading guilty to several felonies. He wasn't acting on his own initiative.

That's why I'm a little crestfallen that an engineer was first to be charged. By all means, charge the guilty & complicit, but I'm apprehensive the order could aide the narrative VW's execs tried to spin at first ( 'This company-wide scandal was clearly the work of exactly one rouge engineer' ) and help them get out scot-free.

> James Robert Liang, leader of diesel competence for VW from 2008 until June

This isn't a guy quietly tinkering with hardware or writing code in a cubicle; he was in a leadership position.

Seems to me, though, they should be charging people above and below him, as long as it can be proven that they knowingly assisted in this.

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#23

Post by SwellJoe » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 6:41 PM UTC

jasonkostempski wrote: post #8

scrumper wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There should be some executives losing their jobs and freedom, if this guy is pleading guilty to several felonies. He wasn't acting on his own initiative.

Just to play devil's advocate, maybe the requirements really are way over the line. In that case I wouldn't hold any grudges. Just because something is classified a felony doesn't mean it's morally wrong. Edit: To clarify, I'm not suggesting this guy taking the dive for the execs is ok, just that someone lying about emission test results may not be as horrible as they're trying to make it sound.

The emissions standards are already a dangerous compromise; we should have been making hard decisions about emissions 20, even 30, years ago...they've gotten stricter because they were disastrously lenient in the past, and we see the results of it.

The reasons someone lying about emissions tests are really as bad is it sounds:

- If one manufacturer lies, other manufacturers are forced to either lie, or lose customers in the market to the liar. Thus, dangerous cars become more common, car makers that try to do the right thing make lower profits and sell fewer cars.

- In this case, "clean diesel" lies likely led other manufacturers to waste resources on trying to make clean diesel of their own. Again, competitive advantage goes to the liar who doesn't actually have to make clean diesel; they just say they did, and sell boatloads of it.

- Emissions standards are already too lenient. Our planet's steadily rising temperature shows us this. No one here at HN (I would hope) would be arguing that climate change isn't happening or that humans aren't causing a significant portion of it, so the only sensible thing is to look at what causes it, and regulate it (somehow; I am not an expert on the subject of how emissions are regulated or should be regulated, but I know it's not really working, thus far...as autos are a significant portion of emissions).

So, if the requirements are "way over the line", how does one explain other auto makers complying with them? Are they all lying? There's been increased scrutiny, so it's likely to come out, if they have been. Wouldn't that be an interesting situation?

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#24

Post by post_break » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 6:43 PM UTC

Interesting to see the 2014 software update to try and hide the defeat software.

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#25

Post by scrumper » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 6:47 PM UTC

jasonkostempski wrote: post #8

scrumper wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There should be some executives losing their jobs and freedom, if this guy is pleading guilty to several felonies. He wasn't acting on his own initiative.

Just to play devil's advocate, maybe the requirements really are way over the line. In that case I wouldn't hold any grudges. Just because something is classified a felony doesn't mean it's morally wrong. Edit: To clarify, I'm not suggesting this guy taking the dive for the execs is ok, just that someone lying about emission test results may not be as horrible as they're trying to make it sound.

I kind of agree with you actually. To refine my comment above, if you accept the premise that there's criminal culpability here, then it's morally unacceptable to send an engineer to prison but not the executives who directed or authorized him to produce a defeat device.

If, as you're saying, you don't accept that cheating on emissions tests is criminal in nature, then the issue should be settled through commercial and civil sanctions (which could perhaps include this engineer losing his license or charter, but more importantly should include those executives suffering severe financial penalties - perhaps that's a massive decline in value in their stock compensation's value caused by VW's mandatory exit from the US market.)

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#26

Post by macns » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 6:52 PM UTC

"Defeat device" they called it, not sure if they realized or ever will what it was they were defeating:

"We must be sure to prevent the authority from testing the Gen 1," the indictment said an employee wrote in German. "If Gen 1 goes onto the roller at the CARB, then we'll have nothing more to laugh about!!!!!"[1]

[1]same story from reuters.com: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSK...

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#27

Post by kstenerud » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 6:59 PM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #20

pweissbrod wrote: post #17

Given the minimal information in this article you cant help but wonder if this is a blatant attempt at designating someone to take the fall for a larger conspiracy, or if higher-level indictments are on the way. At a company like VW decisions like this are never made at the engineering level.

>decisions like this are never made at the engineering level. True, but the law has long held an obligation to "fall on your sword" disobeying illegal orders, even if it comes at great personal cost. See the lack of success of the "just following orders" defense at the Nuremberg trials.

That only happens if you lose a war.

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#28

Post by slavik81 » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 7:01 PM UTC

scrumper wrote: post #3

criddell wrote: post #2

If Mr. Liang is a P.Eng., I hope he loses his license. There should be a bunch of Engineers losing their licenses.

There should be some executives losing their jobs and freedom, if this guy is pleading guilty to several felonies. He wasn't acting on his own initiative.

The CEO of Volkswagen international, the President of the US division and the heads of R&D for Audi and Porsche were fired/resigned almost immediately. Some of them were reported as engineers, because some of them were engineers. Engineer and executive are not mutually exclusive titles.

As for this guy, I'm having trouble finding more details, but as "Leader of Diesel Competence", he may very well be the technical manager directly in charge of the design of the engines.

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#29

Post by frandroid » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 7:05 PM UTC

ardacinar wrote: post #4

Something away from the scandal itself, non-American here and I don't get plea deals. I mean, normally, a trial can result in acquittal even if the defendant admits their guilt if there's very strong objective evidence(DNA records etc.) disproving it. There has existed previous cases where some new evidence surfaced years after a plea deal and the defendant, previously found guilty, was released. So, why does a plea…

American criminal trials are so costly in terms of money and time that the process itself is a form of punishment. Sure, you could go to trial and find yourself not guilty, but then the prosecution files an appeal and you have to keep paying a lawyer. If there's a reasonable chance of you being found guilty, the prosecutor will be happy to strike a reasonable deal with you, so you can get it over with and carry on with your life (and your money). I think something like 90% of cases are resolved through plea bargaining.

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#30

Post by jerf » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 7:06 PM UTC

pweissbrod wrote: post #17

Given the minimal information in this article you cant help but wonder if this is a blatant attempt at designating someone to take the fall for a larger conspiracy, or if higher-level indictments are on the way. At a company like VW decisions like this are never made at the engineering level.

It contains the complete 16-page plea agreement in it. I think that's pretty satisfactory.

In summation, the defendant is looking a 5 years prison and $250,000 in fines, as the defendants representation agrees the charges rate at least that much, plus possible restitution to any identified victims, but the court may agree that if he testifies fully and willingly it will be reduced. So yes, it looks like there's a wider-ranged investigation in progress.