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Facebook deletes Norway PM's post as 'napalm girl' row escalates

theguardian.com

81–90 of 454 posts

Re: Facebook deletes Norway PM's post as 'napalm girl' row escalates

#81
post #21

I'm torn. Freedom of speech and freedom of expression mean that the government can't put you in prison or punish you for saying or believing what you do. Facebook aren't the government, they're a private entity and don't have to host anything they don't like- including hosting photos that they don't like. It's a walled garden, and it's their walled garden, and if you don't like it you're welcome to leave. And on the…

Facebook are the defacto government of online social activities. No other entity comes close, and they have compared themselves to countries before when emphasizing how large their userbase is.

Re: Facebook deletes Norway PM's post as 'napalm girl' row escalates

#82
post #21

I'm torn. Freedom of speech and freedom of expression mean that the government can't put you in prison or punish you for saying or believing what you do. Facebook aren't the government, they're a private entity and don't have to host anything they don't like- including hosting photos that they don't like. It's a walled garden, and it's their walled garden, and if you don't like it you're welcome to leave. And on the…

I'd argue there's a very undefined grey line where companies cross over from just being a small scrappy startup doing something with tech to being a significant influencer of the public with a significant degree of control and impact. At that point it's in the interest of the general public to no longer treat them entirely as a private walled-garden enterprise but as something bigger.

We saw with the Microsoft antitrust case, the government stepping in where a business had grown to the point where it had a dangerous level of control and influence financially; I'm not sure if there's a social equivalent?

Re: Facebook deletes Norway PM's post as 'napalm girl' row escalates

#83
post #21

I'm torn. Freedom of speech and freedom of expression mean that the government can't put you in prison or punish you for saying or believing what you do. Facebook aren't the government, they're a private entity and don't have to host anything they don't like- including hosting photos that they don't like. It's a walled garden, and it's their walled garden, and if you don't like it you're welcome to leave. And on the…

Well, something to consider: during the time that the US Constitution was being written, the most common site to exchange information (usually pamphlets) was the local tavern or coffee house. Sure, if the proprietor was being a prick you could always bring your friends to the shop across the street. But that environment influenced the founders' ideas about how information is exchanged and debated, and it's the format the law of the land was written for.

Facebook is a global coffee house. Everyone can be there at the same time. But that also means it is very hard to use an alternative, especially as Facebook buys relevant competitors of information exchange like Instagram and WhatsApp.

Suddenly, we are in a situation where more people can connect than ever before, but for the vast majority of people, because of convenience and the lack of tenable other options, there is hardly any other choice. Other social networks that simply tried to clone Facebook never got off the ground because everyone was already on Facebook. I would truly love to close my account and leave but it's hard to stay in touch with friends from outside the United States, especially if Instagram and WhatsApp are out of the question.

Given Facebook's overwhelming presence in modern daily life, it is necessary to regulate what it can or cannot do for the benefit of the common citizens. The degree of regulation will always be debated, and rightly so, but to pretend that a private entity of immense social might is free to do as it pleases is to willingly give away power and authority from the state, and in a democracy, from the people themselves.

EDIT: wow, downvoted to hell for this one. It would be so fascinating if just one person could describe what makes my view so wrong.

Re: Facebook deletes Norway PM's post as 'napalm girl' row escalates

#84
post #61
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm starting to get tired of making this point in some of the many discussions of this topic (most recently https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12457371 ), so the last time for a month, I swear: You tell me when I can open a segregated lunch counter, or refuse to bake a gay wedding cake, and I'll consider your argument to have merit. Otherwise, it's only a matter of time until Facebook and company are brought to hee…

I still don't understand the gay wedding cake argument. If I'm a baker, why can't I refuse to make certain cakes? I mean, I would never turn away a customer, but if the customer asked me to write obscene things on the cake, don't I have the right to refuse their request? "I'd like to have a rainbow cake" "ok" "with little penises sticking out of it for my gay wedding" "no, sorry." What's wrong with that? It's no diff…

The difference is whether you belong to a protected class of people as dictated by the government. Strangely, often the difference in those cases is also how you respond.

"I want a cake for my gay wedding." "Sorry, I'm too busy to fulfill your request." Likely nothing comes of it.

"I want a cake for my gay wedding." "No, I don't support your lifestyle and I'll pray for your soul." Lawsuit.

Granted, extreme example of a response there. Lesson is, just say no but don't say why.

Re: Facebook deletes Norway PM's post as 'napalm girl' row escalates

#85
post #61
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm starting to get tired of making this point in some of the many discussions of this topic (most recently https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12457371 ), so the last time for a month, I swear: You tell me when I can open a segregated lunch counter, or refuse to bake a gay wedding cake, and I'll consider your argument to have merit. Otherwise, it's only a matter of time until Facebook and company are brought to hee…

I still don't understand the gay wedding cake argument. If I'm a baker, why can't I refuse to make certain cakes? I mean, I would never turn away a customer, but if the customer asked me to write obscene things on the cake, don't I have the right to refuse their request? "I'd like to have a rainbow cake" "ok" "with little penises sticking out of it for my gay wedding" "no, sorry." What's wrong with that? It's no diff…

AFAIK, refusal of service is up to the states:

http://aclu-co.org/court-rules-bakery-illegally-discriminate...

> Longstanding Colorado state law prohibits public accommodations, including businesses such as Masterpiece Cakeshop, from refusing service based on factors such as race, sex, marital status or sexual orientation. Mullins and Craig filed complaints with the Colorado Civil Rights Division (CCRD) contending that Masterpiece had violated this law. Earlier this year, the CCRD ruled that Phillips illegally discriminated against Mullins and Craig. Today’s decision from Judge Robert N. Spencer of the Colorado Office of Administrative Courts affirms that finding.

Federal law, however, prohibits discrimination against those seeking housing, employment, credit, or disaster relief.

Re: Facebook deletes Norway PM's post as 'napalm girl' row escalates

#86
post #68
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Encouraging your MP to violate human rights is only vacuously legal if it is at all.

What human rights are being violated in this scenario, exactly?

The ones afforded to us by our libertarian utopia obviously. How could anyone could possibly consider lobbying to take away Facebook's rights as a person to do as it pleases?

Re: Facebook deletes Norway PM's post as 'napalm girl' row escalates

#87

If you're a Facebook user and you are unhappy with the way the company strongarms, censors and manipulates its audience, the most effective way for you to express this dissatisfaction is to close your account, block social media bugs and encourage your friends and family to do the same. Facebook doesn't care how you feel when you use their service; their bottom line simply depends on your contribution to the statisti…

> is to close your account, block social media bugs and encourage your friends and family to do the same. Much easier said than done. First, there is no way to 'close' your account - you can only 'deactivate' it. I did it in July, but then I noticed that a lot of social activities - like concerts, festivals, parties, etc, are organised using Facebook so if you're not on it, you can't participate. This is very frustra…

You can delete it there are what only 5 datacenters...finding your data and cleansing it should not be too hard just alittle repetative ;) But the more effective way to make Facebook listen is to hit them in the pocketbook. Keep your account use an ad-blocker if enough people did that long enough...

Re: Facebook deletes Norway PM's post as 'napalm girl' row escalates

#88

If you're a Facebook user and you are unhappy with the way the company strongarms, censors and manipulates its audience, the most effective way for you to express this dissatisfaction is to close your account, block social media bugs and encourage your friends and family to do the same. Facebook doesn't care how you feel when you use their service; their bottom line simply depends on your contribution to the statisti…

No. It's more effective to lobby your local member of parliament/congress to pass laws restricting what media organisations can or cannot do. Granted, by "more effective" I mean something like 0.1% instead of 0.01%, but it's worth a try.

Why is Facebook a media outlet as opposed to, say, a private gathering place like a mall or movie theatre?

Re: Facebook deletes Norway PM's post as 'napalm girl' row escalates

#89
post #21

I'm torn. Freedom of speech and freedom of expression mean that the government can't put you in prison or punish you for saying or believing what you do. Facebook aren't the government, they're a private entity and don't have to host anything they don't like- including hosting photos that they don't like. It's a walled garden, and it's their walled garden, and if you don't like it you're welcome to leave. And on the…

The PM didn't post the photo. Someone else did.

The PM posted a criticism saying Facebook should "review its editing policy".

And then Facebook deleted that.

I can concede that there could be good reasons to pull the photo. But I don't see good reasons to pull the PM's post. I don't like any organization having so much power to make criticism about itself disappear.

Re: Facebook deletes Norway PM's post as 'napalm girl' row escalates

#90
post #21

I'm torn. Freedom of speech and freedom of expression mean that the government can't put you in prison or punish you for saying or believing what you do. Facebook aren't the government, they're a private entity and don't have to host anything they don't like- including hosting photos that they don't like. It's a walled garden, and it's their walled garden, and if you don't like it you're welcome to leave. And on the…

FB is controlled by Zuckerberg. He's the only shareholder that counts for determining what the company does. This is on him.

Controlled by dude that if not for this would be living in his parents basement trolling on the internet somewhere or working for Google.
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