Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer” • Hacker News Board

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#321

Post by wpietri » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 12:35 AM UTC

exstudent2 wrote: post #174

wpietri wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a guy myself, I am in favor of guys being active. Men, after all, embody most of the problem; leaving it to women to solve is putting a burden on people who are already getting a raw deal. But yes, guys should be aware that their common instinct to come in and dominate a thing will often not be well received. Partly because dudes pushing to dominate is how the problem was created and is maintained. Partly because…

If you see this as a problem that needs fixing then more power to you. Many however see no problem. Women have free will and can choose the career of their liking. Also "Men, after all, embody most of the problem;" will not be winning many converts to your point of view. Men are not a uniform being. You're painting with some really broad brush strokes and the only people who are going to hear what you say are those t…

> Many however see no problem.

This is true with most problems. How many people saw a problem with the Windows hegemony? That doesn't mean it's not a problem, just that many people are not in a place to see it.

> Women have free will and can choose the career of their liking.

Yes and no, in that order. "Career" is an essentially social concept. Consider, for example, that women got less than 10% of medical and legal degrees as recently as 1972:

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/hua_hsu/cohen_do...

What changed between now and then wasn't women's free will, which they have always had. It was the social context.

> Men are not a uniform being. You're painting with some really broad brush strokes

Sure. So are you. I think most people here are smart enough to understand how a generalization works.

> "Men, after all, embody most of the problem;" will not be winning many converts to your point of view.

Sure, there are people who, for the moment, are such delicate flowers that they cannot admit that they might be part of the problem. But if those people "convert", they will not do much good.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#322

Post by morgtheborg » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 12:35 AM UTC

generic_user wrote: post #285

Mz wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that some women who would like to be there basically feel forced out. As you point out, active inclusion does not work. But reducing exclusion can help enormously. However, it isn't an easy thing to make happen.

There are thousands of Men that are 'forced out' of technology jobs every day due to not making the cut during there interviews or leaving for a long list of reasons. No one has shown that the general environment in technology focus businesses is more hostel to women then Men. It can be stressful and hostel to everyone equally. I believe that is the case. Woman have better options for careers in many professions with…

> It can be stressful and hostel to everyone equally. I believe that is the case.

Eh, none of the men seem particularly perturbed by the term bitch, slut, whore, etc until I point out it makes me uncomfortable. None of them seem particularly disturbed by the subpar maternity leave until, again, I bring it up. None of them seem particularly concerned that they are assumed to be technical, and I am assumed to be administrative.

I wonder why all of these things do not seem to be equally stressful to them? Can you think of any reasons? /s

I literally was turned down from a job I later learned routinely had business meetings at a strip club. I highly doubt any of the men were uncomfortable and I highly doubt you're confused as to why I would have been.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#323

Post by jshevek » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 12:37 AM UTC

houselouse wrote: post #19

> Invite women you work with for coffee No chance of this being misinterpreted. Invite women you work with for coffee and ask what they like or dislike about their day-to-day. If they mention concerns or problems they’re having, ask if there’s any way you could help make it better.

Just be very, very careful that this invitation is not extended while you are in an elevator.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#324

Post by wpietri » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 12:39 AM UTC

acdha wrote: post #271

wingless wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I talk to plenty of actual women in tech. They rarely complain about anything that affects women more than men. And if they do, it usually comes from a die-hard feminist SV hedge fund kid who blows everything out of proportion because of political reasons. So it's equally as shitty for men. Women not choosing to become software engineers or quitting more than men do indicates nothing since there are tons of different…

Your rush to dismiss very well documented problems as coming from “a die-hard feminist SV hedge fund kid who blows everything out of proportion because of political reasons” suggests a far more likely explanation: none of the women you've talked to feel comfortable discussing their frustrations with you because they're afraid of sharing that hostile rejection with the potential for negative career impacts.

Exactly this. If I want people to be honest, I have to create a context in which they are rewarded for honesty. This is especially true if I am asking them to do me a favor by spending time to educate me.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#325

Post by gentleteblor » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 12:40 AM UTC

Mz wrote: post #273

gentleteblor wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bummer you couldn't comment further, this thread is going to look a little out of order. But let's get real here. This isn't about male victimization. This is about the inability of a privileged class to see it's own privilege. Read this whole thread and what you see are many men who don't recognize their own privilege, men who are blind to individual and structural biases. And because they don't see it they w…

Let me respectfully suggest that if you wish to be part of the solution instead of paet of the problem, you go thoughtfully engage some of the comments made here by people self identifying as female instead of arguing with a man in this way. Your arguments here are part of the problem because it promotes a "what about da menz" environment while also giving the man you are arguing with reason to dig in his heels. This…

I don't see your comment as an attack (criticizism is aok), but i do want to understand it.

Are you saying that i am simultaneously minimizing gender diversity in tech ("what about da menz") AND encouraging more folks to do so by being too blunt?

If you are (again, i'm not sure what you're saying), i'd say the first point is a wrong reading of my comments. The second point is a little better. I am being blunt, but that's just what the doctor ordered here.

EDIT (can't reply to your comment):

That is better, thank you for clarifying.

I had not thought about silence as the biggest problem for women in tech. I don't know the gender of the first poster i replied to, but maybe i should have made a point to engage with one of the female engineers in the thread.

Maybe it's a blind spot, something i have to keep an eye out for and be better at. Will be thinking about it for sure.

I still believe in my comments about some of these attitudes that are popular on HN. We should all talk about them.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#326

Post by BurningFrog » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 12:41 AM UTC

Chinjut wrote: post #301

withdavidli wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't a work place issue, it's a marriage issue. If your wife beats you for talking to women while she's not around, you need to document and prolly get a divorce. This is not okay.

Hell, more than a divorce, if the beating is literal. No one should be beating anyone.

I'm glad we sorted out that problem.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#327

Post by wpietri » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 12:41 AM UTC

rndgermandude wrote: post #148

wpietri wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you would talk with some actual women in tech, you would learn that many women choose not to become software engineers (and choose to leave at 2x the rate of men) because it is often a shitty environment for them. You would also learn that plenty of people are working on making a more inclusive industry for reasons that have nothing to do with pushing down their own wages. I'm one of them.

It's often a shitty environment for men, too. Now the question is: Is it really that much more shitty for women, are there other factors at play for them leaving (or not joining in the first place), or a combination of both. I'd say the latter: The environment is a bit shittier on average for a women and therefore should be improve to be equally shitty for all, but there are other factors at play here too.

Sure, life is terrible. Sure, the patriarchal system we are embedded in is bad for everybody. But again, if you want to know what actual women actually experience, the right way to approach that isn't boldly stating your own answer. Try asking.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#328

Post by jshevek » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 12:44 AM UTC

> I’m constantly aware of being female. When a coworker looks to a junior male engineer on the team for help instead of me, a senior engineer.

This sounds like it could easily be confirmation bias. There is a long list of hypothetical reasons why this might be the case, including the desire to not bother a senior person - whose time is more valuable - by pestering them with questions that a junior person could answer.

If one is inclined to assume that this is a result of sexism, they are going to see imaginary sexism everywhere.

> Or when someone corrects my code in a way that shows their default assumption is that I don’t know something rather than that I made a mistake.

By some value systems, this would be the more generous assumption. If they were always assuming someone made a mistake (rather than simply being ignorant), one could equally well complain that this (the inverse assumption) was a result of sexism.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#329

Post by Mz » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 12:45 AM UTC

gentleteblor wrote: post #325

Mz wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me respectfully suggest that if you wish to be part of the solution instead of paet of the problem, you go thoughtfully engage some of the comments made here by people self identifying as female instead of arguing with a man in this way. Your arguments here are part of the problem because it promotes a "what about da menz" environment while also giving the man you are arguing with reason to dig in his heels. This…

I don't see your comment as an attack (criticizism is aok), but i do want to understand it. Are you saying that i am simultaneously minimizing gender diversity in tech ("what about da menz") AND encouraging more folks to do so by being too blunt? If you are (again, i'm not sure what you're saying), i'd say the first point is a wrong reading of my comments. The second point is a little better. I am being blunt, but th…

I am saying that actions speak louder than words. I am saying men already talk to men plenty, even debate them in a meaty way. The biggest problem women have in STEM is the deafening silence that greets them at every turn.

I am saying if you really want progress, talking with women solves the problem of deafening silence in a very immediate way while setting an example to follow. Examples are generally more effective at fomenting positive social change than criticism of those claiming the problem is not real.

Is that clearer?

Thank you for replying.

Edit: I saw your update. Thanks.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#330

Post by jshevek » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 12:46 AM UTC

32wattle_park wrote: post #304

Hi, I got my CS degree from a university in Australia back in the early 90s. It was hard to find a job after I graduated, lots of companies prefer guys to work for them. So I had to start from a very bottom position, data entry. After a year, I managed to find a position as a junior programmer. I had the lowest salary in the team. I liked technical challenges, but hardly got any because all the interesting projects w…

> I did not enjoy sitting and coding for hours/days/weeks. I enjoyed building the hardware, writing code to make it work etc. The commitment to long hours also discouraging.

Your honesty is refreshing. I also prefer a greater diversity in my activities.