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The privacy wars are about to get a whole lot worse

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Re: The privacy wars are about to get a whole lot worse

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has this actually been verified that they are recording without people's knowledge or consent and sending that data home vs just listening locally for a specific wake up word? Don't get me wrong... I think it is horrid and the trend is worrisome, but I haven't seen conclusive proof this is happening yet.

Hey Siri is completely local. If you turn on Airplane Mode, it still works. However, it can mishear you sometimes and thereby send a snippet of your conversation to Apple, I suppose.

Also, Siri is a real name used by real people.

I would object less if the phrase was 'hey Apple-bot'.

Re: The privacy wars are about to get a whole lot worse

#92

from the article - "Notice and consent is an absurd legal fiction." it shouldn't be. "Notice and consent" should instead be a class taught in high schools. The ability to read, understand and NEGIOTIAGE these agreements should be within the mental grasp of everyone.

There are far too many ToSes for any person to be able to read them, let alone negotiate each. This problem was solved in an earlier age of commerce through a Uniform Commercial Code (throughout most of the US), or equivalent statutory or case law in other domains. Essentially, contracts were reduced to a common set of standard components. Exceptions might be allowed for specific cases, including unilateral "contract…

I like the point about the UCC. I have thought about standardized contracts myself, though I didnt think to compare it to the UCC.

"But until terms of service are both standardised and codified with users' interests in mind"

But what about sites with a different revenue model? Say an image hosting site meant for personal photos, and an image sharing site meant as a platform for artists to sell their work. You would not want the former allowing any sort of copyright transfer, but the latter cannot function without it(at least without the ability for the site to take payment and provide a license). Im not sure how we could standardize everything. Especially if consumers are not willing to pay a subscription.

"In particular, ordinary transactional terms are limited by:"

1. But this would be an ongoing relationship, assuming they continue to use the service.

2. Again, subscription fees would be needed to sustain the business. Otherwise advertising is the only way. And there's an old joke in advertising: half of all advertising budgets are wasted, the trick is figuring out which half. I do see your point about a drivers license number not being needed for a long period of time.

Re: The privacy wars are about to get a whole lot worse

#93
post #8

I used to feel strongly about not trading my privacy away for some convenience. For a long time I took a luddite pride in not being on various services, having a dumb phone, keeping it turned off, etc. Over time, though, I've found myself having a change of heart. What started as little inconveniences have turned into big ones, as I'm more and more out of touch with my peers, contemporaries, and family. I don't like…

> It's a basic human right. What do you mean by that? That phrase always struck me as an argument-ending non-argument. What if I disagree that you have a "right" to privacy in any meaningful way? What if I think that I have a basic human right to control the data you choose to upload to my server?

There's a long litarture and philosophical debate on the whole concept of human rights. I also tend not to find those discussions particularly productive, as it's something a "get out of rational discussion free" card: a person can simply declare that some favourite property or aspect is some universally privileged right. I'm less familiar with the debate, its particulars, and various advocates than I'd like to be. Generally, though, I find the empirical arguments more persuasive.

This isn't because I don't like the specific rights conveyed. Generally, most liberal rights strike me as personally quite desirable. And preferable on a social basis.

It's the latter which I think makes a better basis for arguing for (or against) rights. There are rules of behavior, including rules reserved to individuals, which seem to make for more viable societies, cultures, and civilisations. There are also, though, overabundances of freedoms which can be counterproductive -- as Will Durant has noted, if you've got a choice between an excess of order or an excess of liberty, he'd choose order, because you still have order. (Mind, I'm not entirely convinced he's correct either.)

But generally: a right (conditional, empirically-based, predicated on an increase in overall social welfare) to privacy strikes me as something which, on balance, tends to promote rather than diminish preferred function of society as a whole. And a loss of that privacy generates highly negative consequences.

I'm les

Re: The privacy wars are about to get a whole lot worse

#94

> Eventually, some lawyer is going to convince a judge that, say, 1% the victims of a deep-pocketed company’s breach will end up losing their houses to identity thieves as a result of the data that the company has leaked, and that the damages should be equal to 1% of all the property owned by a 53 million (or 500 million!) customers whom the company has wronged. It will take down a Fortune 100 company, and transfer b…

"They're portraying the negligent company as the victim!"

While I agree that things like sql injection are negligent, there were also credit card hacks/leaks(and an nsa leak) that were the result of malicious contractors. Saying "dont hire bad people" is easy, but how do you do that?

And the standard for best practices is constantly moving in our industry, how do we decide when it is negligence, and when there was nothing that could be done.

Not saying people are being harmed by this, Im just saying its not so black and white. In some cases the companies that were hacked couldnt have reasonably stopped it. I mean, how do you prevent contractors from setting up something that steals credit card numbers? You hired the contractors because you dont have those skills in house.

Re: The privacy wars are about to get a whole lot worse

#95
post #18
post #8

I used to feel strongly about not trading my privacy away for some convenience. For a long time I took a luddite pride in not being on various services, having a dumb phone, keeping it turned off, etc. Over time, though, I've found myself having a change of heart. What started as little inconveniences have turned into big ones, as I'm more and more out of touch with my peers, contemporaries, and family. I don't like…

In theory the European Union has a bit better law than the US in this area. I write in theory - because in practice the USA does not need to abide by it - and it is mostly US companies that keep our data. As to the awareness group - I guess this will be controversial - but there are the Pirate Parties with privacy in the core of their ideology. Personally I think that we'll have to give up strict privacy - it is inev…

Additionally, and more importantly, the governments of EU countries themselves do not respect any of the supposed privacy laws.

All EU countries have their own intelligence services that are doing substantially the same thing as the NSA does, every day.

Re: The privacy wars are about to get a whole lot worse

#96
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a basic human right. What do you mean by that? That phrase always struck me as an argument-ending non-argument. What if I disagree that you have a "right" to privacy in any meaningful way? What if I think that I have a basic human right to control the data you choose to upload to my server?

We'll first of all it's turtles all the way down. Like all morality there isn't an absolute answer that tells us what is good or bad in a secular setting. So the thing that comes closest is the culture and history we've been carrying with us. And that the 'right' to privacy has been a 'right' for a long time (eg. the right to private conversations and mail etc.)

Only in western democracies. In Russia and China, for example, the government has the legal right to monitor any communication whatsoever, and always has.

Re: The privacy wars are about to get a whole lot worse

#97
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey Siri is completely local. If you turn on Airplane Mode, it still works. However, it can mishear you sometimes and thereby send a snippet of your conversation to Apple, I suppose.

Also, Siri is a real name used by real people. I would object less if the phrase was 'hey Apple-bot'.

Seriously

Re: The privacy wars are about to get a whole lot worse

#98
post #64

from the article - "Notice and consent is an absurd legal fiction." it shouldn't be. "Notice and consent" should instead be a class taught in high schools. The ability to read, understand and NEGIOTIAGE these agreements should be within the mental grasp of everyone.

If you manage to renegotiate your contract/EULA with Apple or Facebook or Google because of your impressive ability to read and understand them, let me know. In reality, the power these companies have means there is no negotiation. They are gatekeepers to nearly necessary tools to exist in society (especially for the non-tech-savvy) and they can put whatever rules they want on those gates. Your choices are to do what…

I mostly agree, though I think that California's massive amount of readily available tech venture capital, as compared to anywhere else on Earth, is a far more important factor in its abundance of startups, rather than its obscure law banning non-compete agreements.

Re: The privacy wars are about to get a whole lot worse

#99

My thought on this, for some time, has been that people need ways to effectively express, legally and technically, their disagreement and noncooperation with such terms. An alternative model for funding both innovative reasearch and creative content (writing, music, film/video, visual, and other arts) also seems increasingly essential. Information and culture are public goods, and cash-on-the-barrelhead (or bitcoin-t…

Well, the most effective response is already here: don't use the service. While that can be a big ask for many services, we're also doing a great job of replicating the functionality of many closed services in an open way. As long as the FOSS/hobby tech world still cares, we'll keep biting away at the new markets closed services create.

That's fine if you don't mind abandoning the externalities of the service.

For example, when all your friends now communicate mainly on Facebook (or WhatsApp, etc.), then your choice is to either lose touch with your friends, or use that service. Sure, nobody's technically forcing you to use Facebook, but the social externality means that you become cut off from your friends in a very real way if you don't.

Re: The privacy wars are about to get a whole lot worse

#100
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you manage to renegotiate your contract/EULA with Apple or Facebook or Google because of your impressive ability to read and understand them, let me know. In reality, the power these companies have means there is no negotiation. They are gatekeepers to nearly necessary tools to exist in society (especially for the non-tech-savvy) and they can put whatever rules they want on those gates. Your choices are to do what…

I mostly agree, though I think that California's massive amount of readily available tech venture capital, as compared to anywhere else on Earth, is a far more important factor in its abundance of startups, rather than its obscure law banning non-compete agreements.

The law isn't obscure at all, it's a fundamental part of employment law that separates California from many other states.

And saying it's due to tech VC is saying there's a lot of tech success due to the overabundance of tech success.

People who work at a company can quit and start a startup, even in the same industry, carrying with them their hard-won expertise. Without a legal cloud over their heads which will scare away investment.

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