The privacy wars are about to get a whole lot worse • Hacker News Board

Re: The privacy wars are about to get a whole lot worse

#11

Post by throwanem » Wed, Sep 07, 2016, 5:21 PM UTC

tome wrote: post #9

AlexandrB wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As long as the FOSS/hobby tech world still cares, we'll keep biting away at the new markets closed services create. I think nibbling away is more accurate. There are still no privacy-conscious alternatives to the big 3 social networks (Facebook/Twitter/LinkedIn) and none on the horizon. Yes technological alternatives exist, but not practical ones as I'm not likely to run into someone using Diaspora in real life. Th…

> There are still no privacy-conscious alternatives to the big 3 social networks (Facebook/Twitter/LinkedIn) I'm not a member of LinkedIn so I'm constantly a bit confused by it. Does it offer anything compelling besides a list of the places you've worked and studied? Why couldn't I get the same benefit by putting up a static web page with a content form? Am I missing out on something?

Discoverability and messaging. If you like hearing from a range of recruiters, putting a keyword-filter-friendly resume on LinkedIn is a good way to make that happen. The quality varies pretty widely, but at least some of them are worth talking to in my experience.

(Stack Overflow Careers is another good spot if you're interested, with in my experience a lower incoming message rate but a somewhat higher average lead quality, and none of the irritation that LinkedIn generally creates in its users.)

Re: The privacy wars are about to get a whole lot worse

#12

Post by k-mcgrady » Wed, Sep 07, 2016, 5:31 PM UTC

Frondo wrote: post #8

I used to feel strongly about not trading my privacy away for some convenience. For a long time I took a luddite pride in not being on various services, having a dumb phone, keeping it turned off, etc. Over time, though, I've found myself having a change of heart. What started as little inconveniences have turned into big ones, as I'm more and more out of touch with my peers, contemporaries, and family. I don't like…

>> "So I'm curious, are there any cities, counties, states with any sort of legislative efforts going on to strengthen the citizens' rights to privacy and ownership of data? Is there anyone we can look to as a model for "privacy and data ownership done right," something to work toward implementing at a national level? Is there any awareness group working to raise these issues in a way that's actually accessible to the general public? (Are they doing a good job at it?)"

I'm in a similar position to you. I value my privacy and think it's an important right the needs to be protected. Unfortunately you miss out on a hell of a lot of things if you are strict about maintaining it (thanks mostly to ad supported web services). I also agree that it's through laws that this can be fixed. I think generally laws just can't keep up with the pace of technological change or are made by people with almost no technical knowledge. I'm actually just about to start studying for a law degree (I'm in my late 20's) so that I can apply my technical knowledge (I've been a full-time dev for the last 7 years) to privacy law. Hence I've been researching it a lot recently. The best group I've come across raising awareness and fighting for privacy is Privacy International. It's definitely worth checking out. They produce reports on privacy rights in countries throughout the world and they fight government legislation trying to erode our privacy rights. As for legislative efforts to strengthen privacy the EU's recent changes to data protection and data use of EU citizens by companies based outside the EU springs to mind (Privacy Shield). It's not great but there is effort to improve.

Re: The privacy wars are about to get a whole lot worse

#13

Post by keyboardwarrior » Wed, Sep 07, 2016, 5:35 PM UTC

tome wrote: post #9

AlexandrB wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As long as the FOSS/hobby tech world still cares, we'll keep biting away at the new markets closed services create. I think nibbling away is more accurate. There are still no privacy-conscious alternatives to the big 3 social networks (Facebook/Twitter/LinkedIn) and none on the horizon. Yes technological alternatives exist, but not practical ones as I'm not likely to run into someone using Diaspora in real life. Th…

> There are still no privacy-conscious alternatives to the big 3 social networks (Facebook/Twitter/LinkedIn) I'm not a member of LinkedIn so I'm constantly a bit confused by it. Does it offer anything compelling besides a list of the places you've worked and studied? Why couldn't I get the same benefit by putting up a static web page with a content form? Am I missing out on something?

People confuse marketing with innovation. Ask the creator of sliced "wonder" bread.

Re: The privacy wars are about to get a whole lot worse

#14

Post by AlexandrB » Wed, Sep 07, 2016, 5:44 PM UTC

tome wrote: post #9

AlexandrB wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As long as the FOSS/hobby tech world still cares, we'll keep biting away at the new markets closed services create. I think nibbling away is more accurate. There are still no privacy-conscious alternatives to the big 3 social networks (Facebook/Twitter/LinkedIn) and none on the horizon. Yes technological alternatives exist, but not practical ones as I'm not likely to run into someone using Diaspora in real life. Th…

> There are still no privacy-conscious alternatives to the big 3 social networks (Facebook/Twitter/LinkedIn) I'm not a member of LinkedIn so I'm constantly a bit confused by it. Does it offer anything compelling besides a list of the places you've worked and studied? Why couldn't I get the same benefit by putting up a static web page with a content form? Am I missing out on something?

> Why couldn't I get the same benefit by putting up a static web page with a content form?

The same question could have been asked of GeoCities and one could give the same answer: most people outside the tech bubble don't know and don't want to know how to put up a website.

Yes, it's "not that hard", but it's also not as easy as filling in a bunch of text fields on LinkedIn - especially when you factor in things like SEO if you have a common name.

Re: The privacy wars are about to get a whole lot worse

#15

Post by mindslight » Wed, Sep 07, 2016, 5:47 PM UTC

EGreg wrote: post #10

dredmorbius wrote: post #2

My thought on this, for some time, has been that people need ways to effectively express, legally and technically, their disagreement and noncooperation with such terms. An alternative model for funding both innovative reasearch and creative content (writing, music, film/video, visual, and other arts) also seems increasingly essential. Information and culture are public goods, and cash-on-the-barrelhead (or bitcoin-t…

It doesn't matter. There are many ways to get information from you in "public" ways. We can get speech from video and keystrokes from sound. Target already predicts pregnancies, and facebook predicts breakups. China already has a citizen reputation system the way we have credit bureaus. We can identify you by your gait, or wifi signals in your home without you even moving. We store most of the CCTV video camera foota…

> It doesn't matter. There are many ways to get information from you in "public" ways

Politically, this framework is at the root of the problem. Currently, privacy violation is only policed based on method of access, rather than a larger general concept. We put "hackers" in prison for years for "breaking into an email account" because they shared a few people's private information, yet commercial surveillance bureaus are free to do whatever they want because the data is already "out there". Focusing solely on access kills any independent concept of privacy.

Specifying what exactly should be considered wrong is obviously a challenge. I think a business entity having someone's identifying information in a database without an ongoing business relationship could be a decent first pass. This difficulty is a large part of what has stunted progress. (Just FWIW my usual assumption is that information dissemination can't be stopped, but I don't think that assumption is necessarily true when talking about policing commercial entities that inherently have government charters.)

I'm actually more hopeful for technical solutions to the problem, even though they suffer from problems of scope, implementation, financing, and adoption. But coming up with a better external concept of privacy can guide such things too, especially encouraging incremental change in business models as opposed to the moon shot of repaving it all with Free software.

Re: The privacy wars are about to get a whole lot worse

#16

Post by dmix » Wed, Sep 07, 2016, 5:48 PM UTC

Sylos wrote: post #4

I mean, it's already happening. People walk around with smartphones, tablets and laptops which constantly record audio for their virtual assistants, and I have not once consented to having my voice recorded by any of those devices.

People also bring their phones into the bathroom every single time they use the toilet. It's a common joke on Reddit.

The future: where a remotely accessible camera/microphone now follows you into bathrooms.

Re: The privacy wars are about to get a whole lot worse

#17

Post by syntheticnature » Wed, Sep 07, 2016, 5:50 PM UTC

tome wrote: post #9

AlexandrB wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As long as the FOSS/hobby tech world still cares, we'll keep biting away at the new markets closed services create. I think nibbling away is more accurate. There are still no privacy-conscious alternatives to the big 3 social networks (Facebook/Twitter/LinkedIn) and none on the horizon. Yes technological alternatives exist, but not practical ones as I'm not likely to run into someone using Diaspora in real life. Th…

> There are still no privacy-conscious alternatives to the big 3 social networks (Facebook/Twitter/LinkedIn) I'm not a member of LinkedIn so I'm constantly a bit confused by it. Does it offer anything compelling besides a list of the places you've worked and studied? Why couldn't I get the same benefit by putting up a static web page with a content form? Am I missing out on something?

Some people find the professional-life-focused networking compelling.

Me, I find it theoretical, due to its profligate handling of email addressbooks and my history helping maintain mailing lists and selling items on Craigslist before they implemented full bidirectional address anonymization. I've had a large number of invitations, likely autosent, to connect from folks I wouldn't recognize if they sat down in front of me.

Re: The privacy wars are about to get a whole lot worse

#18

Post by zby » Wed, Sep 07, 2016, 5:53 PM UTC

Frondo wrote: post #8

I used to feel strongly about not trading my privacy away for some convenience. For a long time I took a luddite pride in not being on various services, having a dumb phone, keeping it turned off, etc. Over time, though, I've found myself having a change of heart. What started as little inconveniences have turned into big ones, as I'm more and more out of touch with my peers, contemporaries, and family. I don't like…

In theory the European Union has a bit better law than the US in this area. I write in theory - because in practice the USA does not need to abide by it - and it is mostly US companies that keep our data.

As to the awareness group - I guess this will be controversial - but there are the Pirate Parties with privacy in the core of their ideology.

Personally I think that we'll have to give up strict privacy - it is inevitable that more and more online devices will know more and more about us - but we need some time to adjust, to find out how to make a world without this strict privacy reasonable.

Re: The privacy wars are about to get a whole lot worse

#19

Post by thisisimpo » Wed, Sep 07, 2016, 5:56 PM UTC

EGreg wrote: post #7

I like Cory Doctorow. I really do, and I agree that this is a problem. But as I argue, the genie is already out of the bottle, the cat is out of the bag and the barn door is open. What we should focus on instead is mechanisms for mitigating and punishing malicious use of data, AS WELL AS putting the surveillance to good use, eg body cameras for on-duty police officers: http://magarshak.com/blog/?p=169

With parallel construction and such, it might be hard to punish malicious use...

Re: The privacy wars are about to get a whole lot worse

#20

Post by heimatau » Wed, Sep 07, 2016, 6:02 PM UTC

Frondo wrote: post #8

I used to feel strongly about not trading my privacy away for some convenience. For a long time I took a luddite pride in not being on various services, having a dumb phone, keeping it turned off, etc. Over time, though, I've found myself having a change of heart. What started as little inconveniences have turned into big ones, as I'm more and more out of touch with my peers, contemporaries, and family. I don't like…

Have you tried the Silent Circle's phone (Blackphone) [1]?

I'm similar to you in many ways on privacy. If the price can come down for the Blackphone and Celluar data, I'd be all for it. It make take time though.

[1] - https://www.silentcircle.com/products-and-solutions/devices/