‘Superbug’ scourge spreads as U.S. fails to track rising human toll • Hacker News Board

Re: ‘Superbug’ scourge spreads as U.S. fails to track rising human toll

#41

Post by rbobby » Wed, Sep 07, 2016, 4:54 PM UTC

unfortunate4u33 wrote: post #26

wildmusings wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should someone be allowed to sneak into a company's building, or pretend to be an honest employee, just to investigate potential wrongdoing? That's the government's job, not private activists'. If someone wants to walk into your private property and research your operations, you should have the right to tell them to beat feet. If there is a legitimate public interest then the government should create an inspection sc…

OP: Government is actively participant in creating this issue. You: Well we should just wait for them to fix this very serious problem they're causing. I'm sure the party that's held social progress at bay for 40 years now is going to suddenly realize they're w... oh wait you're a fool and a coward.

From the guidelines:

> When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names

Though this might also equally apply:

> Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face-to-face conversation. Avoid gratuitous negativity.

Re: ‘Superbug’ scourge spreads as U.S. fails to track rising human toll

#42

Post by EGreg » Wed, Sep 07, 2016, 4:55 PM UTC

This is exactly why we need open source drugs. I have written about this extensively.

http://magarshak.com/blog/?p=93

It's the flipside of the factory farm and overprescriptio fiascos. Yes, those are bad, but we haven't discovered new types of antibiotics for decades... and many diseases get far less attention, because of patents and silos. Even researchers working as a result of public funding are snapped up by big pharma once they make a discovery which then acts as a parasite on the public money.

Science progresses when anyone, anywhere, can contribute. Same with open source. It is the reason Wikipedia is larger than and just as accurate as Brittanica or any other encyclopedia. It is the reason Android runs on so many phones, and Linux runs on toasters. It has given us everything from WebKit to Wordpress and created a massive amount of solutions for the LONG TAIL instead of just boutique drugs.

It took 30 years to discover a new antbiotic type:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/14/first-new-anti...

More people studying eg human bacteria in the nose will find cures if they are unencumbered:

http://www.nature.com/news/the-nose-knows-how-to-kill-mrsa-1...

We need patentleft! All that phage therapy etc. shouldn't be controlled the way monsanto controls agriculture now.

Re: ‘Superbug’ scourge spreads as U.S. fails to track rising human toll

#43

Post by andrewclunn » Wed, Sep 07, 2016, 4:55 PM UTC

So avoid hospitals unless absolutely needed. Gotcha.

Re: ‘Superbug’ scourge spreads as U.S. fails to track rising human toll

#44

Post by ihsw » Wed, Sep 07, 2016, 4:59 PM UTC

badminton1 wrote: post #38

alkonaut wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So just vote to outlaw antibiotics use in healthy livestock and make sure there is a rigorous inspection apparatus? Farmers are few, people who get diseases are many. Shouldn't be too hard.

"The thoughtless person playing with penicillin treatment is morally responsible for the death of a man who succumbs to infection with a penicillin-resistant organism." - Sir Alexander Fleming

It should be noted that Fleming discovered Pencillin and the statement is especially prescient coming from him. He spoke countless times around the world trying to raise awareness that antibiotic resistance would be inevitable when used improperly.

The nightmare scenario is medical science gets rolled back by a century as non-trivial infections return to being a death sentence.

Re: ‘Superbug’ scourge spreads as U.S. fails to track rising human toll

#45

Post by swasheck » Wed, Sep 07, 2016, 5:01 PM UTC

wildmusings wrote: post #32

swasheck wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is legitimate public interest as these sites are key components of the food production system. The point that the OP was intentionally making is that the government (via GOP leadership, apparently) has specifically excused itself from creating such an inspection scheme and done so in a way that seems comprehensive enough to understand the alternative paths "guerilla ... activist" scientists could even potential…

That the government is failing to investigate something cannot be a license to trespassing or lying your way to a private investigation. If you want government action on something, then you have to win in the political process. Taking matters into your own hands and assuming the powers reserved for the government is not acceptable. =================== Replying to swashek below since I'm rate-limited: what are you tal…

Where do you see ANYthing about trespassing, and how do you interpret ANYthing that either I or the OP stated as condoning it? It was simply stated that trespassing is clearly defined as illegal. Lobbyists have cornered winning in the political process so all we have is our voice, which it sounds like you're trying to take away.

Even as a country of laws (which I support), you still have to be able to admit that said laws are absurd when they are, in fact, absurd. This goes beyond absurd and endangers the populace. You seem more interested in ensuring that we definitively prosecute thought crimes rather than work to change the system which, at face value, appears to place the government as accessories to the wrongful deaths of many of its citizens (keeping focus on this particular topic). As such, doesn't OP have the right to criticize and suspect the government, especially when the government is ostensibly blockading one of those "inalienable rights" of "life ..."

Keep shilling, though!

Re: ‘Superbug’ scourge spreads as U.S. fails to track rising human toll

#46

Post by ocschwar » Wed, Sep 07, 2016, 5:05 PM UTC

wildmusings wrote: post #21

ocschwar wrote: post #17

Bear in mind that in the US, our lovely republican party literally made it illegal to research where the superbugs are being bred. In the US, the problem is mostly pig and cattle feedlots that rely on antibiotics to keep the animals from being sickened but he crowding. Naturally, there is no proof that superbugs are coming out of the feedlots, because the feedlot owners do not allow any sort of sample collection by s…

Should someone be allowed to sneak into a company's building, or pretend to be an honest employee, just to investigate potential wrongdoing? That's the government's job, not private activists'. If someone wants to walk into your private property and research your operations, you should have the right to tell them to beat feet. If there is a legitimate public interest then the government should create an inspection sc…

> Should someone be allowed to sneak into a company's building, or pretend to be an honest employee, just to investigate potential wrongdoing? That's the government's job, not private activists'.

So Upton Sinclair was wrong to go undercover to gather material for his book The Jungle?

In case you're not aware, until the 80's, American law practically encouraged a level of industrial espionage, because it discouraged reliance on trade secrecy and therefore encouraged the dissemination of knowledge. And yes, because it enabled undercover investigations of wrong doing, both the illegal and what ought-to-be illegal.

Re: ‘Superbug’ scourge spreads as U.S. fails to track rising human toll

#47

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 07, 2016, 5:07 PM UTC

wildmusings wrote: post #32

swasheck wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is legitimate public interest as these sites are key components of the food production system. The point that the OP was intentionally making is that the government (via GOP leadership, apparently) has specifically excused itself from creating such an inspection scheme and done so in a way that seems comprehensive enough to understand the alternative paths "guerilla ... activist" scientists could even potential…

That the government is failing to investigate something cannot be a license to trespassing or lying your way to a private investigation. If you want government action on something, then you have to win in the political process. Taking matters into your own hands and assuming the powers reserved for the government is not acceptable. =================== Replying to swashek below since I'm rate-limited: what are you tal…

[deleted]

Re: ‘Superbug’ scourge spreads as U.S. fails to track rising human toll

#48

Post by drzaiusapelord » Wed, Sep 07, 2016, 5:07 PM UTC

jmde wrote: post #30

wildmusings wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should someone be allowed to sneak into a company's building, or pretend to be an honest employee, just to investigate potential wrongdoing? That's the government's job, not private activists'. If someone wants to walk into your private property and research your operations, you should have the right to tell them to beat feet. If there is a legitimate public interest then the government should create an inspection sc…

I sort of agree with you, but the laws overstep what I consider acceptable. I'm fine with an operation banning employees from filming, for example, and employees getting fired for doing so, or for arresting people for trespassing. The laws referenced by the OP go further, though, to criminalize recordings that were taken by individuals who were allowed on the property by the owner, and who were documenting what happe…

This is my thinking as well. It means your hothead animal rights person can't assault your staff, tresspass, visit with fake credentials, etc for a political agenda. Property rights do matter, regardless of the exceptions the left keeps trying to give itself against the non-left.

If this is really a public rights issue and lets assume the entirely of the GOP has been paid off, from POTUS to dog catcher, then where is the Democratic response? Oh right, it doesn't exist, because this is a non-issue outside of extremist views. Its trivial for any political group to start a case and get it to SCOTUS if they believe any of this is unconstitutional. Its trivial for law enforcement to get warrants against these farms if they're violating the law.

I do understand the controversy here, but I think in the end, whistleblowing will always come with some risk. Its a little naive to think it doesn't. I think most people are okay with that because casual whistlblowing becomes office politics, meaningless outrage politics, and endless bikeshedding. There should be a high threshold for exemption to the laws that guarantee our freedom and rights.

Re: ‘Superbug’ scourge spreads as U.S. fails to track rising human toll

#49

Post by cookiecaper » Wed, Sep 07, 2016, 5:10 PM UTC

swasheck wrote: post #45

wildmusings wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That the government is failing to investigate something cannot be a license to trespassing or lying your way to a private investigation. If you want government action on something, then you have to win in the political process. Taking matters into your own hands and assuming the powers reserved for the government is not acceptable. =================== Replying to swashek below since I'm rate-limited: what are you tal…

Where do you see ANYthing about trespassing, and how do you interpret ANYthing that either I or the OP stated as condoning it? It was simply stated that trespassing is clearly defined as illegal. Lobbyists have cornered winning in the political process so all we have is our voice, which it sounds like you're trying to take away. Even as a country of laws (which I support), you still have to be able to admit that said…

This comment was fine-ish up until that last line. Please edit it away.

I don't think that the person you're replying to is suggesting that the law should remain as-is. Rather, he's suggesting that the law should be modified via the established political processes for doing so. I'm not sure where you're getting the "thought crime" thing -- even if he supported the ag-gag laws, it wouldn't be thought crime to say so, and he wouldn't be accusing others of thought crime by saying so. This is simply called a "disagreement". It doesn't need to be dramatized.

Of course OP has a right to criticize and suspect the government. Who said he didn't? That doesn't mean OP has the right to disregard property boundaries or to enter a private premises under false pretenses, even if the stated intent is to "prove antibiotics in farm animals are causing human superbugs".

If one believes that the local trespassing laws should be modified to accommodate persons acting in this particular public interest, he should contact his local representatives, or, alternately, run against them and lead the charge himself.

It is probably much easier to convince someone in one of the several government bureaucracies to open an investigation than to get a special exception to trespassing laws codified.

Re: ‘Superbug’ scourge spreads as U.S. fails to track rising human toll

#50

Post by serge2k » Wed, Sep 07, 2016, 5:12 PM UTC

nikhilsimha wrote: post #40

alkonaut wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So just vote to outlaw antibiotics use in healthy livestock and make sure there is a rigorous inspection apparatus? Farmers are few, people who get diseases are many. Shouldn't be too hard.

Agro lobby is pretty powerful in the US. The people lobby - our dear senate, republican and democrat simply sells out.

Why does it seem like every damn thing we do for farmers is awful for others?

I know it's not, we reap the benefits in lower food prices, but does beef really need to be cheap enough we can eat it 7 days a week?