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ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

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Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#251

Post by ancap »

JulianMorrison wrote: post #84
qaq wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should avg. taxpayer take on this burden?

Fuck the word taxpayer, it's a lie hiding in a literalism. It pretends that people are paying for some service and they could stop. No. Society, as individuals on behalf of the whole, has responsibilities . One of those is to pick up the tab when people's lives have been ruined through no fault of their own. The whole "small government" thing has just been people blowing off their responsibilities.

I agree with your disdain of the word taxpayer. More appropriate would be "tax victim".

You have a fallacy in your premise, however. Government is not synonymous with society.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#252

Post by mywittyname »

at-fates-hands wrote: post #232
rubidium wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not disagreeing with your encouragement towards the skilled trades, but please do be realistic with your information. Median salary is $40K. http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Welder/Hourly_Rate

And with most places paying overtime, it's easy to push that up to the 70-80K range I was talking about. I should've been clearer in stating that.

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/production/welders-cutters-solderers-...

The median pay for a welder is $38,000 per year. Only 10% earn more than $60,000 a year.

In other words, earning $70-80k "out of the gate" as you say, is rare. A person earning a median hourly income would need to work 3200 hours a year to make $70,000 (assuming 1.5x wage for all hours over 2000).

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#253

Post by jeffdavis »

cstejerean wrote: post #214
jeffdavis wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"handing out student loans to students who statistically won't be able to repay, and I'm OK with the DOE putting a stop to it" Right, but ot depends on the facts. Were they just asked to put up reasonable collateral, foreseeable from what they delivered compared with their responsibilities by taking federal money? Or were they blindsided with an arbitrary number from the DOE that was intended to force them to shut do…

They were not asked to put up collateral because their education is worthless and students won't be able to repay. They were asked to put up collateral because the Department of Education didn't believe they would survive the multiple fraud investigations (securities as well as consumer fraud). I think that risk was reasonably high, so the collateral doesn't seem punitive.

In a nation of laws, the government should not take punative action until after allegations of fraud are settled in court.

Sometimes, to prevent further damage, a court may decide to freeze assets or prevent a certain activity while the case is worked out. But that's the job of a court, not an agency like the DOE.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#254

Post by dljs »

jotato wrote: post #110
tptacek wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why'd you go? What'd you study? What was the experience like? (I have a single semester at UIC and no other college).

I graduated from ITT 11 years ago. Care if I chime in? * Why did I go? I was just out of high-school and I wanted to be a software engineer. I looked at the local university (Robert Morris in Pittsburgh, PA), but I didn't like their program. I was one of those kids who started tinkering with programming at 12 by making Pokemon fan sites :) 4 Years at a university studying a generic comp-sci degree didn't appeal to me…

Hi, I am like you.

I graduated 7 years ago from ITT. I went for the same reason you did as I looked at the processes of traditional universities and didn't want to be in a lecture hall. I got a 2 year degree in CNS. I have been a software engineer for 8 years now professionally. Like you I saw it was for profit and the teachers were pressured into passing people even though they clearly shouldn't have. Some of the teachers knew what they were teaching and some didn't; in my linux class I was paid by a student to help them understand the curriculum because they couldn't learn it from the teacher. Was it worth it to me? For what I paid no. I wouldn't tell anyone else to go. My degree did transfer though to a non-profit regionally and nationally accredited school so I am hoping to complete that soon. Even though I am in the top bracket of software dev earners where I am I chose to go back to school for personal reasons as I study at night regardless and think at least get a degree out of it now, and man am I glad I transferred the degree when I did.

My attitude on our entire education system has changed, as I believe the government should have had more regulations in place in the first place so this would've never happened.

I know more people like you and I that went to ITT and regardless whether we would have not gone I do not think it would have affected our current situation at all differently, only that we would have had the money we spent on students loans to do something better with it.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#255

Post by beachstartup »

jnbiche wrote: post #170
swalsh wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went there for 2 semesters. I cancelled after one of the "professors" showed up hung over. The education was very low quality.

> I cancelled after one of the "professors" showed up hung over. For the record, professors occasionally showing up hungover is by no means means confined to ITT. I went to a fairly good public university, and I had a few professors who came to an early-morning class obviously hungover once or twice (and 1 of them was a pretty good teacher). I'm quite sure the same thing sometimes happens at Ivy League schools as wel…

it happens everywhere. at least they were honest. i went to a 'good' UC, literally one of the best schools in the entire world, like in the top 20 if you believe certain 'rankings'. some of my professors tried to schedule 6am exams (which is a fucking absurd time to be in class for a college kid) or just didn't show up, because they were doing consulting work on the side.

one of them was obviously banging the female students for grades. like, really obvious, so obvious that my naive 19 year old self could tell what was going on.

one time one of my professors showed up stoned and showed us pictures of sea turtles for 90 minutes. i couldn't even make that up if i tried. luckily, he was a good teacher and it had something tangentially to do with the class.

yet another professor quit the department (or was he fired?) and started a test prep company ... for the tests he used to give. apparently they just use the same shit over and over, so hey, why not.

all of that is relatively harmless compared to the wing-nut profs that are clearly pushing a political agenda in their coursework and grading, and have absolutely no qualms about punishing you academically for having dissenting opinions.

i don't know, college is kind of a scam all around. there's a lot of fuckery afoot. it's adults doing adult things, it's not high school anymore. having been through it, i know to not to put too much faith into a 'good school' on the resume. i've heard some stories from my friends who went to ivy's and other elite private schools along these lines too. it's endemic.

i think i never liked school because all of this horseshit goes on in industry, except you get paid to deal with it instead of paying to have the privilege of being shit on by professors.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#256

Post by peterwwillis »

arenaninja wrote: post #60
donatj wrote: post #54

I went to a similar for-profit school in Minnesota who also similarly shut down last year. I still feel like they get a bad rap. Was it overpriced? Probably. Did I learn a ton and have small class sizes. Absolutely. The instructors had all previously worked in the industry, and knew their topics very well. On top of all that, after graduation their persistent pestering of "how many places did you apply to this week?"…

I don't disagree that for-profit colleges get a bad rap, but I think it's deserved in the case of ITT Tech and Corinthian. I think about the government handing out student loans to students who statistically won't be able to repay, and I'm OK with the DOE putting a stop to it. Taxpayers will ultimately be on the hook for these failed loans, and if they know which institutions are largely at fault then good on them fo…

So, if tax payers paying for something they're not getting value out of is of interest to you, what about the 600 billion (well over half) of federal discretionary spending that goes to "defense" which involves contracts that we're aware regularly goes over budget and time with no guarantee of success?

Even if you're fine with the amount we spend, the F35 is just one example of exactly what you're talking about, but in terms of defense instead of education. Should we cancel contracts to Lockheed Martin because of how they fail to deliver? Or perhaps consider that even wasted education spending is probably more productive than wasted defense spending?

It's clear that they deliver an education. The question is whether they then get the people who have an education a job, similar to how a fighter plane maker may make a plane, but it may not do its intended job well. I guess I just find it interesting how a lot less time is spent talking about taxpayer spending on wasted weapons, while the measly education budget gets scrutinized with a fine tooth comb.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#258

Post by dragonwriter »

cstejerean wrote: post #214
jeffdavis wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"handing out student loans to students who statistically won't be able to repay, and I'm OK with the DOE putting a stop to it" Right, but ot depends on the facts. Were they just asked to put up reasonable collateral, foreseeable from what they delivered compared with their responsibilities by taking federal money? Or were they blindsided with an arbitrary number from the DOE that was intended to force them to shut do…

They were not asked to put up collateral because their education is worthless and students won't be able to repay. They were asked to put up collateral because the Department of Education didn't believe they would survive the multiple fraud investigations (securities as well as consumer fraud). I think that risk was reasonably high, so the collateral doesn't seem punitive.

> They were asked to put up collateral because the Department of Education didn't believe they would survive the multiple fraud investigations (securities as well as consumer fraud).

That's not entirely true. They were asked to put up collateral and then banned from accepting new federal-aid-dependent students because the DOE received word from ITT's accreditor that ITT's accreditation was at risk due to, among other issues, ITT's financial status.

Now, among the sources of the problems for ITT's financial status were the SEC and CFPB fraud lawsuits themselves, and, IIRC, changes in ITT business practices that were taken in response to those lawsuits. But the primary direct trigger for the DOE actions wasn't DOE's evaluation of ITT's financial status, but the risk that ITT's would lose its accreditation, which would make it ineligible to enroll any students accepting federal student aid (not just new students, but continuing students as well.)

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#259

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

ccallebs wrote: post #213
GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Judging from history, cheap colleges in the post-war decades worked just fine for the boomers.

There were fewer students, fewer colleges, and lower enrollment rates. A big reason why college costs have risen is due to the artificial demand created by subsidized loans.

Fewer taxpayers too and a much-lower per capita GDP.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#260

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

logfromblammo wrote: post #241
ccallebs wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were fewer students, fewer colleges, and lower enrollment rates. A big reason why college costs have risen is due to the artificial demand created by subsidized loans.

Just as a gas will expand to fill its containing vessel, costs tend to grow to meet the available budget. If 100% of the university operating budget for student instruction is guaranteed by the state, you might be surprised at how often the seats in the lecture halls need to be replaced. Rather than being reupholstered after 10 and 15 years, and replaced after 20, they are replaced every 5 years. The profitable busin…

> Money without a vigilant guardian

This is called the "board of regents" and "the state legislature."

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