Have you ever worked with anything ... High tech?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l31I9RvluEA
I asked that once during an interview, and was met with blank stares. Haven't asked it since, but I feel like it could have been hilarious.
ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down
221–230 of 304 posts
Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down
#222Earlier quoted context omitted.
Be careful what you wish for. This would basically kill liberal arts programs and the idea of a well-rounded post-secondary education. The incentive would be to transform universities into job-training programs. I know there is an ongoing debate about the worth of a liberal arts education in the modern economy, but there's something to be said about the traditional notion of education for education's sake, rather tha…
The question is, why should tax payers subsidize liberal art programs with no job prospects? Giving student loans in exchange for getting an education that will increase their earning power makes sense. Not only will the loan be paid back, but the increased earning power will also increase the tax base. But someone graduating with $200k in student loans with a degree that will barely qualify them for a $35k per year…
Taxpayers do this already: it's called grade school and high school. The public has an interest in an educated populace.
I'm not seeing any direct correlation between the cost of an education program and the earning power of graduates from the program, so in the absence of that evidence, I couldn't say with any confidence that tying subsidies to earning power will do much at all to bring program costs down.
If I were to guess, what's more likely to happen is these programs would be canceled wholesale at low-margin institutions, leading to an effect opposite that which you describe: liberal arts programs would be available only at the institutions where graduates are more likely to obtain well-paying jobs, meaning Ivy League and other prestigious (and expensive) institutions.
Simply limiting access to federal loans across the board, rather than subsidizing STEM/MBA degrees at the expense of liberal arts, would probably do much more to incentivize the reduction of post-secondary education costs without completely ditching the notion of a liberal education.
Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down
#223Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't disagree that for-profit colleges get a bad rap, but I think it's deserved in the case of ITT Tech and Corinthian. I think about the government handing out student loans to students who statistically won't be able to repay, and I'm OK with the DOE putting a stop to it. Taxpayers will ultimately be on the hook for these failed loans, and if they know which institutions are largely at fault then good on them fo…
"handing out student loans to students who statistically won't be able to repay, and I'm OK with the DOE putting a stop to it" Right, but ot depends on the facts. Were they just asked to put up reasonable collateral, foreseeable from what they delivered compared with their responsibilities by taking federal money? Or were they blindsided with an arbitrary number from the DOE that was intended to force them to shut do…
They've had plenty of time to fix their problems. They have to have known about the issues for some time now, so them not having a bunch of extra time given to them is nothing to be sad about.
Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down
#224It looks like the main problem in this whole scheme is the government-funded student loan program. ITT was wrangling to get access that that loan money as a key to its operations. Failing to comply with the Dept of Ed's requirements caused them to go out of business, since they would no longer have a place at the public trough. How many state schools and private colleges could survive without government largess? We'v…
> We've seen a massive increase in tuition costs, far beyond inflation in recent years. Such is the result of artificially boosting demand for college on the backs of the taxpayer.
There's nothing recent about it. Tuition has been rising far beyond on inflation going back to at least the 1920s. Take Stanford. For each decade here is the factor tuition actually rose from that of 10 years earlier divided by the factor it would have risen by if it had only risen by the inflation rate:
1930 3.0
1940 1.4
1950 1.1
1960 1.2
1970 1.8
1980 1.2
1990 1.4
2000 1.3
2010 1.3
Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down
#225I went to a similar for-profit school in Minnesota who also similarly shut down last year. I still feel like they get a bad rap. Was it overpriced? Probably. Did I learn a ton and have small class sizes. Absolutely. The instructors had all previously worked in the industry, and knew their topics very well. On top of all that, after graduation their persistent pestering of "how many places did you apply to this week?"…
Just because you had a great experience does not negate the fact that for-profit college students, statistically, fare much worse. A common pattern I have seen: Person does terrible in high school, doesn't get into a good college because they don't have the drive or commitment to get good grades. They go to community college, and surprise, they again get terrible grades and stop going. After a while they want to go b…
Do those statistics adjust for the quality of incoming students? That is, would the same student do worse at a for-profit college than a usual university (taking into account expected costs and outcomes)?
Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down
#226Earlier quoted context omitted.
The end result you describe isn't much different than a number of 4 year undergraduate degrees, PhDs or masters programs (all at "good" colleges). The best advice I ever received was to not pursue a Ph.D. in philosophy. It's wrong to think that departments at not-for-profit schools don't have a marketing incentive that is (at best) indifferent to the best interests of the student.
>The end result you describe isn't much different than a number of 4 year undergraduate degrees, PhDs or masters programs (all at "good" colleges). The difference is that the percentage of people with that negative end result is MUCH higher. Looking at stats like the default rate for students at for-profits vs non-profits is one indicator. >It's wrong to think that departments at not-for-profit schools don't have a m…
> At least at the undergraduate and masters level, there is a strong incentive to select students that are LIKELY to graduate from the program.
Is there? It affects their attrition rate, but I am not sure that is a big factor in which schools students choose. It seems to be based on things like facilities, "vibe", majors available, prestige, quality of education. A high attrition rate need not even suggest a low prestige or quality of education: in many graduate programs, almost the opposite is true.
I went to a very expensive private but nonprofit Christian school for undergrad. They accepted anyone, and their attrition rate was abysmally high (although the education quality was fine). The attrition rate didn't matter at all to their marketing, as parents sent their kids there for different reasons. In fact, those kids who dropped out after 1-2 years were big moneymakers, as they only took gen ed classes that are cheapest to staff.
For PhDs, attrition is much more discouraged, at least economically (I'm in bio), because PIs/advisors pick students with the understanding that their first 1-3 years they will be useless in research and only start "paying off" near the end. This is why at the higher-tier graduate schools, there is a big attrition at the general exam (1.5 years in) and it's very low afterwards. In lower-tier programs there is low attrition throughout. And of course, many grad programs pay stipends, so those programs lose money with no compensation if someone drops out. Very different incentive structure than programs where the student pays tuition.
Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down
#227The dream: take students who are mostly unprepared to succeed at college and educate & prepare them for success in the real world. The reality: most of these students will not realize a return on the investment of their time and acquisition of a ton of debt that they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. Many will fail to attend class, fail to take notes, fail to do homework, fail to learn, and will not complete - but beca…
Honestly, even though this is harsh, I think your "the reality" description of for profit colleges applies to community colleges as well. Graduation rates at community college are very low (like 35%ish) and more than half of community college students need to take (and pay for) remedial classes before they even start earning credit. They are comparatively affordable though and you aren't likely to go into crushing de…
> Community college is not the answer to the kids flunking out of ITT tech.
Who's trying to solve the problem of kids flunking out of ITT Tech? One of the problems with ITT Tech is that you can't flunk out of it.
> They won't do better in community college, they will just have comparatively less debt.
You seem to think that there's a problem with people doing badly at ITT Tech. The problem is that ITT Tech is bad, not that people are doing badly there. That people are saddled with a worthless qualification and are in crushing debt from the process of getting it is the problem.
> Getting more kids in community college is certainly not the answer.
To the question that nobody asked? No. To people ending up in horrible debt with a worthless credential? Of course it is. It would take you 4-5 years in community college to generate the debt that you can in a semester of one of these fake schools. Community colleges are fine. Some are great. I went from community college to university, and a ton of other people did with me, a few to Northwestern and the University of Chicago (I just went to UIC.) I'm sorry you didn't like yours, but you shouldn't judge all Chinese restaurants because the meal you had at the one in your hometown was too salty.
> More subsidies is even more not the answer.
To what question?
Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down
#228Earlier quoted context omitted.
The question is, why should tax payers subsidize liberal art programs with no job prospects? Giving student loans in exchange for getting an education that will increase their earning power makes sense. Not only will the loan be paid back, but the increased earning power will also increase the tax base. But someone graduating with $200k in student loans with a degree that will barely qualify them for a $35k per year…
Taxpayers do this already: it's called grade school and high school. The public has an interest in an educated populace. I'm not seeing any direct correlation between the cost of an education program and the earning power of graduates from the program, so in the absence of that evidence, I couldn't say with any confidence that tying subsidies to earning power will do much at all to bring program costs down. If I were…
The way the formula works the average or median (whichever is higher) annual income can be lower for lower cost institutions. So for example, SUNY Binghamton University could pass the GE rule if it's graduates make at least $40,000/year. Likewise, Nassau Community College would need its graduates to secure $23,500/year jobs. They'd both be fine.
Where this rule would pinch would be high cost institution that nonetheless produce graduates that enter low paying jobs.
Taking your premise that society has an interest in an educated populace, and that includes people studying liberal arts at the tertiary level, does it have an interest in paying for the most expensive providers of that education?
Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down
#229I went to a similar for-profit school in Minnesota who also similarly shut down last year. I still feel like they get a bad rap. Was it overpriced? Probably. Did I learn a ton and have small class sizes. Absolutely. The instructors had all previously worked in the industry, and knew their topics very well. On top of all that, after graduation their persistent pestering of "how many places did you apply to this week?"…
Just because you had a great experience does not negate the fact that for-profit college students, statistically, fare much worse. A common pattern I have seen: Person does terrible in high school, doesn't get into a good college because they don't have the drive or commitment to get good grades. They go to community college, and surprise, they again get terrible grades and stop going. After a while they want to go b…
You know that's an interesting thought. That its not the quality of the education, but the quality of the student. Similar to how prestigious schools do better just because they filter for better students.
Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down
#230The dream: take students who are mostly unprepared to succeed at college and educate & prepare them for success in the real world. The reality: most of these students will not realize a return on the investment of their time and acquisition of a ton of debt that they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. Many will fail to attend class, fail to take notes, fail to do homework, fail to learn, and will not complete - but beca…
That's not the dream. The dream is to get access to the billions of dollars the Federal Government spends to finance college degrees. Tuition costs at for-profit schools track neither those companies inputs nor the value they actually provide to the market.
The distinction is important. It is likely --- overwhelmingly likely, I think --- that there are programs with "the dream" you site that will work well. They just won't work like government-subsidized for-profit colleges.