ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down • Hacker News Board

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#131

Post by jrs235 » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 4:17 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #55

jrs235 wrote: post #43

What enabled this greed scheme to work? Government guaranteed loans. The schools and institutions need to have some of their own skin in the game.

The students too. If they are spending their own money they will (at least be more likely to) care more about what they are spending it on.

Touche. Perhaps full deferment should be changed to paying back $200 / month even while enrolled. I know this is controversial. But at least then the students might feel the pinch and squeeze that the loans will have on them and it might also help them learn personal finance. If a student is unable to make the payments and go into default then they'll have to take a semester off and make some money (this would also prevent some from going much much deeper into debt). All around its a crappy situation. But most high school graduates probably think Caveat Emptor was some Roman ruler...

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#132

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 4:18 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #42

joedissmeyer wrote: post #20

I am personaly happy to see the hammer come down on these for-profit universities. I too feel for the students as I was one of the Corinthian Colleges students a few years ago at Everest University through one of the Florida campuses. My degree program was the A.S. in Computer Information Sciences -- such a waste. Look up the job placement rates for that program in 2010, just insane. Thankfully I too have been able t…

Easy student loans for worthless education is what created the problem of sham for-profit universities to begin with.

Yes, and the reason that there were easy student loans for worthless education is because of laxity in the accreditation system on which reliance is placed to assure that education is not worthless, and because of a historical lack of accountability for frauds on the part of certain (particularly for-profit, who have the strongest incentive for fraud) institutions.

The recent issues at Corinthian and ITT (including the fraud lawsuits against both and the DOE pressure on accreditors, as well as the ultimately DOE action after the fraud lawsuits and accreditation issues at ITT) are a direct result of efforts to end "easy student loans for worthless education."

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#133

Post by johnward » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 4:19 PM UTC

eli wrote: post #113

bradleyjg wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While there may well be more bad (by whatever metric) for-profit colleges there are also bad non-profit colleges. And non-profit itself is a bit of misnomer. It is true that registered non-profits can't pay dividends to their shareholders, but they can and sometimes do pay exorbitant salaries to those that have control over them. As the gainful employment rule[1] currently stands it exempts degree programs from publi…

Salaries at non-profit must be "reasonable" by law. There's probably a lot of wiggle room there, but it's not like you can just pay yourself anything.

How do you define a reasonable salary for a C level exec when the for profits pay them insane rates?

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#134

Post by nommm-nommm » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 4:20 PM UTC

aaronchall wrote: post #35

The dream: take students who are mostly unprepared to succeed at college and educate & prepare them for success in the real world. The reality: most of these students will not realize a return on the investment of their time and acquisition of a ton of debt that they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. Many will fail to attend class, fail to take notes, fail to do homework, fail to learn, and will not complete - but beca…

Honestly, even though this is harsh, I think your "the reality" description of for profit colleges applies to community colleges as well. Graduation rates at community college are very low (like 35%ish) and more than half of community college students need to take (and pay for) remedial classes before they even start earning credit.

They are comparatively affordable though and you aren't likely to go into crushing debt to go to community college, though it's possible, my uncle did it.

There was one of the "best" community colleges in the country in my hometown. Best ranked by, I have no idea, people in town just talked about how it's ranked high nationally. I took a few classes there the summers I spent in my hometown during my college years to speed up my university degree. The quality of classes and education was seriously lacking in the classes I took. They were not college level in my opinion (even though my credits had no problem transferring). Grades were posted online without names attached and it was shocking to me that half the class was struggling to pass such a basic class. These C community college students are not going to make it in a 4 year university if that's what they are aiming for.

My friend did get her LPN there though and seems like a good nurse so maybe it was ok for more "trade" type degrees.

Community college is not the answer to the kids flunking out of ITT tech. They won't do better in community college, they will just have comparatively less debt. Getting more kids in community college is certainly not the answer. More subsidies is even more not the answer.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#135

Post by toast0 » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 4:23 PM UTC

Yhippa wrote: post #45

aaronchall wrote: post #35

The dream: take students who are mostly unprepared to succeed at college and educate & prepare them for success in the real world. The reality: most of these students will not realize a return on the investment of their time and acquisition of a ton of debt that they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. Many will fail to attend class, fail to take notes, fail to do homework, fail to learn, and will not complete - but beca…

What's the case against community colleges historically? I graduated from university a while ago and still take a community college course from anything from math to photography when I have the time. I have been largely impressed by what they have to offer.

California community colleges are pretty affordable (with in-state tuition) and mostly pretty good, but not all states have a similar system: when I was in Wisconsin, community college was much closer to the cost of a four year school.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#136

Post by peterhadlaw » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 4:23 PM UTC

tamana wrote: post #71

larrywright wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure he's referring to Illinois Institute of Technology ( http://web.iit.edu ), and the fact that the name confusion doesn't act in his favor. I didn't attend, but I've been on the campus and it seems like a pretty great school.

That confusing with Indian Institute of Tech should help though. That's a top school in India

Hence "(Chicago)" ;)

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#137

Post by peterhadlaw » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 4:24 PM UTC

larrywright wrote: post #63

tptacek wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why'd you go? What'd you study? What was the experience like? (I have a single semester at UIC and no other college).

I'm pretty sure he's referring to Illinois Institute of Technology ( http://web.iit.edu ), and the fact that the name confusion doesn't act in his favor. I didn't attend, but I've been on the campus and it seems like a pretty great school.

You are correct, I'm referring to Illinois Institute of Technology! :)

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#138

Post by mathattack » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 4:25 PM UTC

aaronchall wrote: post #35

The dream: take students who are mostly unprepared to succeed at college and educate & prepare them for success in the real world. The reality: most of these students will not realize a return on the investment of their time and acquisition of a ton of debt that they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. Many will fail to attend class, fail to take notes, fail to do homework, fail to learn, and will not complete - but beca…

Your last paragraph is spot on. Community Colleges (supported by MOOCs) and apprenticeship and trade school programs are the way to go.

3rd tier colleges with Ivy League prices aren't, and are only done based on misleading financial aid. I've seen a lot of resumes of people from for-profit schools. The graduates fall in 2 camps: Those who regret the decision, and those who don't realize how badly they were scammed.

90% of the time I see a title attached to someone's name ("Jane Smith, Phd" or "John Doe, MBA") it's from one of these overpriced degree factories, and it's a terribly negative signal.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#139

Post by arenaninja » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 4:27 PM UTC

jeffdavis wrote: post #87

arenaninja wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree that for-profit colleges get a bad rap, but I think it's deserved in the case of ITT Tech and Corinthian. I think about the government handing out student loans to students who statistically won't be able to repay, and I'm OK with the DOE putting a stop to it. Taxpayers will ultimately be on the hook for these failed loans, and if they know which institutions are largely at fault then good on them fo…

"handing out student loans to students who statistically won't be able to repay, and I'm OK with the DOE putting a stop to it" Right, but ot depends on the facts. Were they just asked to put up reasonable collateral, foreseeable from what they delivered compared with their responsibilities by taking federal money? Or were they blindsided with an arbitrary number from the DOE that was intended to force them to shut do…

I don't have a good answer for you, because what you said sounds rational, but their tactics were slimy and their immediate shuttering signals, in my opinion, that they had no legitimate shot without a seat in the government trough.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#140

Post by ZanyProgrammer » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 4:28 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #59

Yhippa wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the case against community colleges historically? I graduated from university a while ago and still take a community college course from anything from math to photography when I have the time. I have been largely impressed by what they have to offer.

My local one has cut back on everything in the last few years. No more counselors - just use the online tools! And they're mostly about getting federal financial aid. Placement consists mostly of 'apprentice' positions which means a vanload of students running the back end of a restaurant somewhere all summer and sharing an apartment meant for 2. Strangely they don't advertise at all - at least in the media I see. Wh…

Several years ago De Anza College in Cupertino had an excellent array of in person classes (by CC standards). Too bad they are making a lot of those online, from what I remember seeing a few years ago (that also has issues with Gi Bill requirements that classes be in person).