ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down • Hacker News Board

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#201

Post by HarryHirsch » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 5:58 PM UTC

mhurron wrote: post #112

HarryHirsch wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many state schools and private colleges could survive without government largess? The reason we have seen tuition rates go up at public schools is precisely because their share of taxpayer funding has been cut, they have to make up for the missing funds somehow. You'd wish they would rely less on tuition because then we could do without useless taught masters degrees and with less shiny amenities designed to comp…

> Neither the student body nor the taxpayer needs that kind of expense so the place can attract students from three counties away. And if the county their from doesn't have a community college, or the community college in their county doesn't offer the programs they want?

Students can do as they always have done, rent a room somewhere nearby if they want to attend college X.

But if the local, not-famous C.C. just opened a set of dormitories while its offerings stay the same as in previous years it's clear that they are trying to cannibalize from the student body in the next few counties. And at the end of the day, it's only the building contractor that benefits.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#202

Post by ianai » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 5:58 PM UTC

dbg31415 wrote: post #115

What disgusts me most about the for-profit schools -- not to come off as too much of a snob -- is that the money we the taxpayers put into their pockets would be better spent improving community colleges and state schools. I get not everyone needs to go to an Ivy League school, but for vocational basics -- what people are going to these for-profit schools hoping to gain -- community college should be "good enough." I…

I agree. People going to ITT should view a community college as a more than fair replacement. Further, anytime you introduce profit you introduce cost reduction and "keeping something back" from what the customer paid. i.e. In order to make profit they must be giving you a product that's worth less than you paid to them. That's wasteful.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#203

Post by ohyes » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 5:59 PM UTC

dntrkv wrote: post #130

donatj wrote: post #54

I went to a similar for-profit school in Minnesota who also similarly shut down last year. I still feel like they get a bad rap. Was it overpriced? Probably. Did I learn a ton and have small class sizes. Absolutely. The instructors had all previously worked in the industry, and knew their topics very well. On top of all that, after graduation their persistent pestering of "how many places did you apply to this week?"…

Just because you had a great experience does not negate the fact that for-profit college students, statistically, fare much worse. A common pattern I have seen: Person does terrible in high school, doesn't get into a good college because they don't have the drive or commitment to get good grades. They go to community college, and surprise, they again get terrible grades and stop going. After a while they want to go b…

The end result you describe isn't much different than a number of 4 year undergraduate degrees, PhDs or masters programs (all at "good" colleges).

The best advice I ever received was to not pursue a Ph.D. in philosophy.

It's wrong to think that departments at not-for-profit schools don't have a marketing incentive that is (at best) indifferent to the best interests of the student.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#204

Post by lowken10 » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 6:01 PM UTC

blakeyrat wrote: post #185

swalsh wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went there for 2 semesters. I cancelled after one of the "professors" showed up hung over. The education was very low quality.

I went to a real university and I had two professors who I'm sure never lectured sober. It's a bit less forgiveable at a for-profit where there's (I assume?) no tenure, and those professors are fire-able.

I went to community college and did well enough to get into a real university( University of Florida). The biggest shock of my life was that in most cases my community college teachers were superior to the processors at Florida.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#205

Post by lowken10 » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 6:01 PM UTC

blakeyrat wrote: post #185

swalsh wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went there for 2 semesters. I cancelled after one of the "professors" showed up hung over. The education was very low quality.

I went to a real university and I had two professors who I'm sure never lectured sober. It's a bit less forgiveable at a for-profit where there's (I assume?) no tenure, and those professors are fire-able.

I went to community college and did well enough to get into a real university( University of Florida). The biggest shock of my life was that in most cases my community college teachers were superior to the processors at Florida.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#206

Post by ams6110 » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 6:02 PM UTC

rayvd wrote: post #58

joedissmeyer wrote: post #20

I am personaly happy to see the hammer come down on these for-profit universities. I too feel for the students as I was one of the Corinthian Colleges students a few years ago at Everest University through one of the Florida campuses. My degree program was the A.S. in Computer Information Sciences -- such a waste. Look up the job placement rates for that program in 2010, just insane. Thankfully I too have been able t…

Maybe we should have more of them. When they're not meeting the expectations of their students, the students go elsewhere and the school is forced to close. Far cry from the current entrenched and inflexible education system.

Conceptually there is nothing wrong with a for-profit university or vocational training academy. The problem is when there is only profit and no (worthwhile) education or training.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#207

Post by x0x0 » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 6:05 PM UTC

scotch_drinker wrote: post #96

tptacek wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is the non-profit school system "inflexible"? You don't have to attend a major research university at all, let alone for your first several years worth of credit hours. There are more than 1,500 community colleges in the US, with flexible scheduling and costs per credit hour that are a fraction of major schools. The marketing notion that the options are solely UCLA or ITT Tech is part of the problem with for-prof…

In my mind, the ITTs of the world compete with community colleges for students. Are admissions requirements drastically different between the two types of schools? If not, why do people object to for-profit colleges? It seems like there is little accountability in either community colleges or for-profit schools when it comes to accepting students. Both are incentivized to have as many students as possible regardless…

People object to some for-profit colleges because they're a scam. They (1) generally have very poor placement rates; (2) accept students very unlikely to succeed; and (3) exist largely to channel federal taxpayer subsidized loans to their shareholders in a manner detrimental to both the students and the taxpayers. ITT seems to have taken the further step of lying about job placement rates as the cherry on top.

The difference between community colleges (and I'm sure you can find at least one counterexample, but in general) is massive. First, CCs don't charge anywhere near as much money. eg in CA they charge approx $25-$50/credit hour. So even if the student doesn't succeed, the student isn't burdened with tens of thousands of dollars of debt. Community colleges have better to far better outcomes than bottom-feeders like ITT. CCs are accountable to the state and the credentialing boards.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#208

Post by tadfisher » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 6:10 PM UTC

bradleyjg wrote: post #109

donatj wrote: post #54

I went to a similar for-profit school in Minnesota who also similarly shut down last year. I still feel like they get a bad rap. Was it overpriced? Probably. Did I learn a ton and have small class sizes. Absolutely. The instructors had all previously worked in the industry, and knew their topics very well. On top of all that, after graduation their persistent pestering of "how many places did you apply to this week?"…

While there may well be more bad (by whatever metric) for-profit colleges there are also bad non-profit colleges. And non-profit itself is a bit of misnomer. It is true that registered non-profits can't pay dividends to their shareholders, but they can and sometimes do pay exorbitant salaries to those that have control over them. As the gainful employment rule[1] currently stands it exempts degree programs from publi…

Be careful what you wish for. This would basically kill liberal arts programs and the idea of a well-rounded post-secondary education. The incentive would be to transform universities into job-training programs.

I know there is an ongoing debate about the worth of a liberal arts education in the modern economy, but there's something to be said about the traditional notion of education for education's sake, rather than as a mechanism to improve lifetime earnings.

Something should be done about the high cost of post-secondary education and the untenable burden it places on many students, but I disagree that the solution should be tied to job prospects.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#209

Post by ersii » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 6:11 PM UTC

dntrkv wrote: post #130

donatj wrote: post #54

I went to a similar for-profit school in Minnesota who also similarly shut down last year. I still feel like they get a bad rap. Was it overpriced? Probably. Did I learn a ton and have small class sizes. Absolutely. The instructors had all previously worked in the industry, and knew their topics very well. On top of all that, after graduation their persistent pestering of "how many places did you apply to this week?"…

Just because you had a great experience does not negate the fact that for-profit college students, statistically, fare much worse. A common pattern I have seen: Person does terrible in high school, doesn't get into a good college because they don't have the drive or commitment to get good grades. They go to community college, and surprise, they again get terrible grades and stop going. After a while they want to go b…

Do you have any sources for your statistical statement in the beginning of your comment?

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#210

Post by rhino369 » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 6:13 PM UTC

johnward wrote: post #192

tickthokk wrote: post #4

As a 2005 graduate of ITT, I'm glad. This was a long time coming. Now if only I could get my loans refunded :p

"... cancel any federal student debt ..." That's the problem. Maybe I'm in the minority but everyone I know has like less than $10k in federal loans and $40k or more in private loans. I can't figure out how I end up reading about people with $100k in federal student loan debt that get forgiveness for working for the government. How the hell did you manage to get THAT much in federal subsidized money? The only way I c…

One way was going to graduate school. You can get federal loans for grad school at up to the entire cost of attendence. For law school or medical school that's 80k a year.