Earlier quoted context omitted.
Generally, I do agree with you. Voting power, even if it is just one vote, comes with responsibility. And one should respect a vote, and also demand from a voter to behave in a mature, educated and responsible way. > So all the rest (economic devastation, EU disintegration, counterproductive attitudes) might be exactly [...] I doubt that one can draw a straight line from the outcome of the referendum to a fatalistic,…
> demand from a voter to behave in a mature, educated and responsible way. What does that mean? Votes voted either "Leave" or "Remain." That's it. It's a binary choice.
Japan's Unprecedented Warning to UK Over Brexit
191–200 of 209 posts
Re: Japan's Unprecedented Warning to UK Over Brexit
#192Earlier quoted context omitted.
I also wonder why Norway wants that model?
Most likely fisheries. The EU's fishery policy is traditionally held as horrible, and Norway and Iceland both have relative large fishing economies and better-maintained fisheries than the EU CFP.
Re: Japan's Unprecedented Warning to UK Over Brexit
#193Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why would other countries want that model? It seems to be strictly worse than full membership.
I also wonder why Norway wants that model?
Re: Japan's Unprecedented Warning to UK Over Brexit
#194Earlier quoted context omitted.
As far as I was aware it was the areas that the least amount of immigrants that wanted to vote for leave, but at this point it's moot. And I wouldn't say that fears over immigration are xenophobic, I think that the referendum came at a terrible time when Europe as a whole is facing a big refugee (economic or not) problem that they still can't decide how to solve.
>areas that [have] the least amount of immigrants that wanted to vote for leave Ironic, isn't it? But absolutely typical. In Germany as well, the areas with highest anti-immigrant sentiments (and voting etc.) are the ones with the least amount of actual immigrants. Which kind of makes sense when you think about it...
Migrants don't go there, they come to where the jobs are.
Re: Japan's Unprecedented Warning to UK Over Brexit
#195Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is that how Europe is governed? I think any country should be allowed to leave without condescending comments by anyone. I think people can handle condescending comments. The problem is that you cannot reap the benefits without paying dues, which is what the Brexit camp promised. It's in the interest of the remaining EU members to make this clear, or the whole union will crumble. It's likely that this will throw back…
Why can't they? Canada does. Apart from desire to punish the UK, what prevents the EU and the UK from coming to a CETA like agreement (exactly as Boris and May have expressed support for)?
Re: Japan's Unprecedented Warning to UK Over Brexit
#196Earlier quoted context omitted.
The problem is that it is not in the EU's best interest to give the UK the best possible deal, especially with many populist parties ready to request an exit if the UK deal works out well. The whole process will be immensely complicated: the deal should be bad enough for the UK to instil fear for an exit, but good enough to avoid an economic collapse.
> instill fear Is that how Europe is governed? I think any country should be allowed to leave without condescending comments by anyone. I prefer staying in Europe, but if the majority of my fellows prefer the opposite, then it's democracy. Who are we to judge they are "stupid", "country-side, or "senile", like I've read all across newspapers, or even fascists, like I've heard too? If Europe relies on hating the peopl…
The same kinds of argument are made everywhere, with the pro-stay parties predicting bad deals for the leaving country, economic trouble, et cetera. They probably honestly believe that will be the result for a country leaving the EU.
Now the UK is leaving, and the deal they get must be approved by all remaining countries (they all have vetos).
Of course those countries will only agree with a harsh deal for the UK -- one, they really already honestly believe that that would be the result for any leaving country, and two, it is great ammo in their fight for power against pro-leave parties in their own countries. They get to show that their predicted doom comes true.
I'm not sure politics is always hating "the people who have a different opinion", but it's certainly doing everything to get power in your own hands instead of theirs.
Re: Japan's Unprecedented Warning to UK Over Brexit
#197Earlier quoted context omitted.
Most people I talked to were well informed. I think a lot of people were happy to stick it to big business, most of who pay less tax than a local chippy. We felt Brexit was about control, we wanted more of it. When the USA told us off for wanting more freedom it felt a little weird... but, but, you're the land of the free. We just want to be able to control immigration. We want control from Brussels.
I am extremely uninformed about Brexit (because I live in the US and don't have any connection to the UK or EU and don't care to read possibly false information regarding it.) So, in my simplistic and limited view on Brexit, I support it as it looks to be more freeing than being a part of the EU. ((Also, I tend to find that those currently in control of the US want to limit personal freedoms and grow government.))
There are many other factors, and it depends on what you mean by "freeing". Political power, like energy and matter, is generally conserved; the question is, who controls it.
* The ethical, generally accepted solution is for the people to control political power, via democratic government. (Undoubtedly it's very imperfect, but that's inevitable for every large human institution.)
* When you reduce government control of political power, you usually simply transfer it to someone else and often that's not 'the people'. Lacking a systematic, rules-based way to control and express that power, it often becomes might makes right, which dis-empowers most people.
* As a simple example: Less regulation by government often shifts power to big business; most consumers lose power: Government is responsive to them, and regulations often empower consumers.
* Regarding Brexit, intra-European issues and power won't go away. If there is no EU, who determines trade rules? Border laws? Security issues? The fair way to do it is to take a vote. Sans the EU, it's might makes right. We've seen how that works out in Europe (and everywhere else), and in fact the EU was created to prevent a repeat of those scenarios. Now the UK is essentially refusing to respect the votes of their neighbors and will return to the stone-age doctrine of power in a state of anarchy (which is what international relations is widely regarded to be). They also don't get a vote now.
There are other factors too, of course. The UK used to be a major world power; then they became a second-rate one, but allied with the U.S. and Europe. With the rise of billion-person economies in China and India, and with the U.S. already five times larger (320 million), the 60 million people in the UK become an afterthought on the world stage, with limited ability to affect the world's or their own destiny. A united Europe, however, with ten times that population is a player.
The UK is 'freer' like Hawaii would be if they left the United States. Sharing government with other people is not prison or a lack of freedom, it's simply respect for others.
Re: Japan's Unprecedented Warning to UK Over Brexit
#198Earlier quoted context omitted.
The typical leave voter lives in the areas with least immigration. The areas with any substantial immigration either from the EU or elsewhere voted remain.
The sight of a few immigrants in an otherwise white British community is probably more shocking for the locals than it would be in a metropolitan area with a large immigrant population.
Re: Japan's Unprecedented Warning to UK Over Brexit
#199Earlier quoted context omitted.
> since English is not native to any remaining EU > member country Might be worth doing your research.
Don't be so Swift with those downvotes^1. You are suggesting, that Malta^2 is to command the ECB? ^1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_European_Unio... -- working is not the same as official ^2 or Ireland for that matter... Second thought: maybe English could merit a semi-official status though (if May succeeds). But most certainly not a working language (neither an official one).
> Don't be so Swift
It wasn't that funny the first time. > working is not the same as official
English is both an official language of Ireland, and a native language of Ireland. Irish is the third most commonly spoken language in Ireland, after English and Poland. A full 60% of the population of ROI considers itself to be incompetent at speaking Irish.Malta is indeed represented on the ECB's Governing Council.
Re: Japan's Unprecedented Warning to UK Over Brexit
#200Earlier quoted context omitted.
The numbers speak for themselves http://www.stat.go.jp/english/data/nenkan/1431-02.htm Section 2-14 http://www.dir.co.jp/english/research/report/others/20150529... But you are right, I should have said first-world countries, I am not familiar with developing countries policies. Compared to the US and Europe, Japan's immigration policy is far stricter (and sensible as you state for skilled labour) and a significant dr…
> A large number of those in support of Brexit wish to have a similar approach. They wanted control. The EU didn't allow that and there was no negotiation about it.
It was discussed a hundred times (and your answer shows partly why Brexit won: the message didn't get there) that the UK is not in Schengen (hence they control their borders) and can stop and/or kick out any EU nationals that are a security issue or a burden to the system. Other countries have exercised this right previously (Spaniards kicked out of Belgium, English hooligans threatened to be kicked out of France during the last Eurocup, etc).
The only reason to kick foreigners people think of when they talk about control is fear. They fear foreigners. That's what "the EU didn't let them".