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Japan's Unprecedented Warning to UK Over Brexit

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Re: Japan's Unprecedented Warning to UK Over Brexit

#61

Post by clappski »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #25
martinko wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think everyone in any position of power understands that they must remain in the single market - now the only question is how to position / sell this to the electorate.

I don't think May and the Cabinet do. All the noises seem to suggest the real priority is xenophobia - i.e. immigration. ...Which is a purely political strategy to capture the continued support of leave voters - exactly the people whose lives will be destroyed when trade dries up. The problem is that the typical leave voter understands immigration because they have direct personal experience of immigrants. But leave…

As far as I was aware it was the areas that the least amount of immigrants that wanted to vote for leave, but at this point it's moot. And I wouldn't say that fears over immigration are xenophobic, I think that the referendum came at a terrible time when Europe as a whole is facing a big refugee (economic or not) problem that they still can't decide how to solve.

Re: Japan's Unprecedented Warning to UK Over Brexit

#62

Post by alva »

"With regard to unskilled workers, Japanese businesses rely on inexpensive labour from Eastern Europe in the manufacturing and agricultural industries in the UK"

What a hypocritical demand from the Japanese. They have one of the strictest set of immigration policies in the world, largely for the sake of national homogeneity at the expensive of their economy. They believe that is a worthwhile sacrifice for them, why not us?

Re: Japan's Unprecedented Warning to UK Over Brexit

#63

Post by biofox »

dogma1138 wrote: post #38
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think May and the Cabinet do. All the noises seem to suggest the real priority is xenophobia - i.e. immigration. ...Which is a purely political strategy to capture the continued support of leave voters - exactly the people whose lives will be destroyed when trade dries up. The problem is that the typical leave voter understands immigration because they have direct personal experience of immigrants. But leave…

The typical leave voter lives in the areas with least immigration. The areas with any substantial immigration either from the EU or elsewhere voted remain.

The sight of a few immigrants in an otherwise white British community is probably more shocking for the locals than it would be in a metropolitan area with a large immigrant population.

Re: Japan's Unprecedented Warning to UK Over Brexit

#64

Post by tajen »

microtonal wrote: post #30
martinko wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think everyone in any position of power understands that they must remain in the single market - now the only question is how to position / sell this to the electorate.

The problem is that it is not in the EU's best interest to give the UK the best possible deal, especially with many populist parties ready to request an exit if the UK deal works out well. The whole process will be immensely complicated: the deal should be bad enough for the UK to instil fear for an exit, but good enough to avoid an economic collapse.

> instill fear

Is that how Europe is governed? I think any country should be allowed to leave without condescending comments by anyone. I prefer staying in Europe, but if the majority of my fellows prefer the opposite, then it's democracy. Who are we to judge they are "stupid", "country-side, or "senile", like I've read all across newspapers, or even fascists, like I've heard too?

If Europe relies on hating the people who have a different opinion, twisting their vote to say it meant something else, and govern them with "fear" and "bad deal" (your words), then...

...then this is not the Europe I want to be part of.

Re: Japan's Unprecedented Warning to UK Over Brexit

#65

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

dogma1138 wrote: post #38
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think May and the Cabinet do. All the noises seem to suggest the real priority is xenophobia - i.e. immigration. ...Which is a purely political strategy to capture the continued support of leave voters - exactly the people whose lives will be destroyed when trade dries up. The problem is that the typical leave voter understands immigration because they have direct personal experience of immigrants. But leave…

The typical leave voter lives in the areas with least immigration. The areas with any substantial immigration either from the EU or elsewhere voted remain.

Aside from London, which is a special case, that's not particularly true. Remain won in the very big cities with urban cosmopolitan populations and in a few university towns, but lost almost everywhere else.

There are two main groups of leavers, with some overlap - the working classes with limited education and low prospects, and the petit bourgeois, who are relatively poorly educated and uncurious but can be reasonably well off.

The first group has direct experience of poor working conditions, and often lives in an area with immigration. They'll have seen wages being kept down first hand. This vote was enough to swing it for Leave in many working class areas.

The second group may not have direct experience, but is easily persuaded by xenophobia and jingoism. They're often older and are nostalgic for an England that never really existed. They tend conservative - and Conservative.

They like simple explanations to complicated problems, and they're easy marks for the British press - the real source of many of the UK's problems - which has been stoking their prejudices for decades with a constant stream of anti-EU scare stories.

This pattern isn't unique to the UK, but so far the UK is the only country to stress test it.

Re: Japan's Unprecedented Warning to UK Over Brexit

#66

Post by tim333 »

rayiner wrote: post #46
joshvm wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those unchecked lawmakers were also responsible for a level of governmental oversight which is unprecedented anywhere else in the world. That's not a bad thing at all, but you can't sell Remain to an electorate by saying "The EU stops us doing stupid stuff to you". That monkey was responsible for a huge number of regulations which benefit EU citizens, again, because it forces the government to take action that they w…

The U.K. already had plenty of government oversight. Why on earth does it need even more from bureaucrats in other countries?

A lot of it relates to trade so we could have the single market. If you're going to have a border free market where you can order your ingredients from any country you need them to be made to the same regulations.

Re: Japan's Unprecedented Warning to UK Over Brexit

#67

Post by alva »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #51
michaelbuddy wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't about 'racism' at all. That is just what remainers wanted to get out as their media message because it's a typical leftist strategy.

It was about racism in the sense of blaming immigrants for the UK's own political failures. The UK has some of the worst infrastructure, least effective education, most unaffordable housing, least secure jobs, and least effective and generous social spending of any other major EU economy. This is not the fault of the EU, or of immigrants - it's the fault of government policy in the UK. Part of that policy has been to…

"The UK has some of the worst infrastructure, least effective education, most unaffordable housing, least secure jobs.."

Which is why we are one of the most popular work and living destinations for the most educated people in Europe?

"and least effective and generous social spending of any other major EU economy..."

Which is why we are one of the most sought out destinations for the recent migrant wave?

Re: Japan's Unprecedented Warning to UK Over Brexit

#68

Post by wavefunction »

dogma1138 wrote: post #41
agumonkey wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GBP stopped falling though. Dunno if it's because brexit stalled or because the market thinks brexit will be fine.

The GBP stopped falling because the UK government spend about 250bln GBP to stop it from falling further.

They bought 250bln GBP, right? I'm no expert on monetary policy but I thought the way to counter a falling currency was to buy the currency with other foreign currency reserves.

Re: Japan's Unprecedented Warning to UK Over Brexit

#69

Post by [deleted] »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #65
dogma1138 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The typical leave voter lives in the areas with least immigration. The areas with any substantial immigration either from the EU or elsewhere voted remain.

Aside from London, which is a special case, that's not particularly true. Remain won in the very big cities with urban cosmopolitan populations and in a few university towns, but lost almost everywhere else. There are two main groups of leavers, with some overlap - the working classes with limited education and low prospects, and the petit bourgeois, who are relatively poorly educated and uncurious but can be reasona…

[deleted]

Re: Japan's Unprecedented Warning to UK Over Brexit

#70

Post by [deleted] »

alva wrote: post #67
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was about racism in the sense of blaming immigrants for the UK's own political failures. The UK has some of the worst infrastructure, least effective education, most unaffordable housing, least secure jobs, and least effective and generous social spending of any other major EU economy. This is not the fault of the EU, or of immigrants - it's the fault of government policy in the UK. Part of that policy has been to…

"The UK has some of the worst infrastructure, least effective education, most unaffordable housing, least secure jobs.." Which is why we are one of the most popular work and living destinations for the most educated people in Europe? "and least effective and generous social spending of any other major EU economy..." Which is why we are one of the most sought out destinations for the recent migrant wave?

[deleted]
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