Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not • Hacker News Board

Re: Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not

#121

Post by lisper » Sun, Sep 04, 2016, 6:27 AM UTC

epicureanideal wrote: post #113

lisper wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually it has everything in common with the Nazis. The Nazis were the law-and-order party of their day. Very nearly everything they did was legal. That is why they documented everything so meticulously. They really believed they were the good guys. The main reason the Nazis are the iconic villains is not because what they did was that much worse than other atrocities that humans have committed through the ages, but…

Just because some villains started out being for law and order doesn't mean being for law and order makes you a villain. Being for law and order is the "we're the good people" disguise that villains hide in until they show themselves to be villains. But NOT being for law and order doesn't make you a "real good person". The correlation is probably strongly negative even.

> Just because some villains started out being for law and order doesn't mean being for law and order makes you a villain.

That is certainly true, except for two things. First, the phrase "law and order" is a loaded term in American politics. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_and_order_(politics) And second, Trump has made many xenophobic statements, both implicit and explicit. He called out Mexicans for being rapists. He called for a "total ban on Muslims entering the U.S." He failed to distance himself from endorsements by white supremacists. These things do not make Trump a Nazi, but they do make it fair to draw attention to the similarities.

Re: Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not

#122

Post by lisper » Sun, Sep 04, 2016, 6:31 AM UTC

michaelbuddy wrote: post #118

lisper wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do we need to compare everybody to Hitler? Trump's policies are eerily reminiscent of Hitler's. Seriously, go look up some transcripts of Hitler's speeches, especially the early ones, and substitute "Muslim" for "Jew" and compare the results to Trump's rhetoric. Better yet, show the results to some Trump supporters and ask them if they agree with the sentiments. But I don't really care what color their shirts are.…

ehhh No. Every election cycle sees both sides compared to hitler. Hitler hyperbole is immature. And if you look at enough speeches or statements from anyone you can compare to a dictator. Not that hard. You're also blatantly excluding the things he's said about legal immigrants and muslims that are overwhelmingly positive. You've made that choice to ignore positive statements. > "Trumps policy is...." No. Trump has s…

> No. Trump has said time and again, we have immigration laws and we need to follow them.

That's true, but that's not all he has said. He has also said that Mexicans are rapists, that Muslims should be banned from the U.S., and that he "doesn't know" about white supremacists. Among many, many other examples that I could cite.

Trump is not an idiot. He's not going to grow a little mustache and call for a "final solution to the Muslim problem." But it is definitely fair to compare him to the Nazis because the Nazis provide a data point of what can happen when you give political power to xenophobes, which Trump most certainly is.

Re: Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not

#123

Post by lisper » Sun, Sep 04, 2016, 8:04 AM UTC

dilemma wrote: post #83

panic wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The use of force to round up large groups of people is a terrifying thing, and it's absolutely something the Nazis did.

Franklin D. Roosevelt rounded up those of Japanese descent and put them in internment camps. Dwight Eisenhower and John F. Kennedy invaded, proceeded to rounded and murder and otherwise caused the death of up to 3.1 million Vietnamese in the Vietnamese Resistance War against America. Roosevelt, Eisenhower, and Kennedy are literally Hitler.

> Roosevelt, Eisenhower, and Kennedy are literally Hitler.

Clearly not. But neither are they the unambiguously virtuous "good guys" that Americans like to imagine that they are.

Let's stop taking everything to extremes. Will a Trump presidency lead to mass executions of civilians in gas chambers? Probably not. Will it lead to innocent people -- mainly Muslims and people with dark skin -- being deported, separated from their families, tortured, and killed? Very likely. Trump has explicitly promised to do all of these things, and I see no reason to doubt him on this. Do I think it will happen to me? Probably not, but that's only because I'm a rich white guy. But I take little comfort from that because once xenophobia takes root it tends to grow like kudzu. I'm a rich white guy, but I'm also Jewish, so there are absolutely some Trump supporters who would like to see me go back to where I came from along with the Muslims, the Mexicans, and the niggers. The best way to keep those people out of power is to keep Trump out of power. And if pointing out the parallels between Trump and Hitler helps to do that then Godwin be damned. Sometimes the Nazi shoe fits.

[UPDATE:] FWIW, it's not just me making this argument:

http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/trumps-mass-deportatio...

Re: Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not

#124

Post by michaelbuddy » Sun, Sep 04, 2016, 2:06 PM UTC

lisper wrote: post #122

michaelbuddy wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ehhh No. Every election cycle sees both sides compared to hitler. Hitler hyperbole is immature. And if you look at enough speeches or statements from anyone you can compare to a dictator. Not that hard. You're also blatantly excluding the things he's said about legal immigrants and muslims that are overwhelmingly positive. You've made that choice to ignore positive statements. > "Trumps policy is...." No. Trump has s…

> No. Trump has said time and again, we have immigration laws and we need to follow them. That's true, but that's not all he has said. He has also said that Mexicans are rapists, that Muslims should be banned from the U.S., and that he "doesn't know" about white supremacists. Among many, many other examples that I could cite. Trump is not an idiot. He's not going to grow a little mustache and call for a "final soluti…

You're referring to a speech, when Trump was specifically talking about illegal immigration and yes there are rapists and murderers among them. He also brought on stage mothers who have lost their children to these criminals. Fact: illegal immigrants make up a significant portion of the prison population.

Trump is also concerned with radical islamic terrorism. There is a case for banning immigration from specific countries. We already do it, we also already prohibit U.S. businesses from doing business in specific countries. You can say his take on islamic terrorism / and islamic immigration is too hardline. I don't agree. There are clearly trends of actual radicalization within even second generation muslim immigrnts that require vigilance.

Also the "doesn't know" statement regarding supremist groups was him partially hearing in his ear piece in a remote interview Tapper talking about disavowing "groups" Why would Trump "not know" when his daughter is married to a Jewish man? I noticed how you didn't bring up David Duke either and that's because you know full and well Trump in 2000 said disparaging things about Duke not that some 'disavowal' was needed. He has no association with any of them.

So you're saying it's fair to compare him to Nazi's when his daughter is married to a Jewish man and he has many muslims living and staying in his buildings and that he has repeatedly said he holds in high regard. Time to face facts.

Re: Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not

#125

Post by lisper » Mon, Sep 05, 2016, 4:09 AM UTC

michaelbuddy wrote: post #124

lisper wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No. Trump has said time and again, we have immigration laws and we need to follow them. That's true, but that's not all he has said. He has also said that Mexicans are rapists, that Muslims should be banned from the U.S., and that he "doesn't know" about white supremacists. Among many, many other examples that I could cite. Trump is not an idiot. He's not going to grow a little mustache and call for a "final soluti…

You're referring to a speech, when Trump was specifically talking about illegal immigration and yes there are rapists and murderers among them. He also brought on stage mothers who have lost their children to these criminals. Fact: illegal immigrants make up a significant portion of the prison population. Trump is also concerned with radical islamic terrorism. There is a case for banning immigration from specific cou…

"There are rapists and murderers among them" is a very different statement than "they are rapists", which is what Trump actually said. There are rapists and murderers among the citizenry as well. That does not make "Americans are rapists" a true statement.

> There is a case for banning immigration from specific countries

But that is not what Trump has proposed. He has proposed a ban on Muslims. Muslim is a religion, not a nationality.

> partially hearing

That excuse has be thoroughly debunked.

> his daughter is married to a Jewish man

Jews are not the targets this time, Muslims are.

> he has many muslims living and staying in his buildings

Because he is not legally allowed to discriminate against them. Yet.

Re: Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not

#126

Post by michaelbuddy » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 1:15 AM UTC

lisper wrote: post #125

michaelbuddy wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're referring to a speech, when Trump was specifically talking about illegal immigration and yes there are rapists and murderers among them. He also brought on stage mothers who have lost their children to these criminals. Fact: illegal immigrants make up a significant portion of the prison population. Trump is also concerned with radical islamic terrorism. There is a case for banning immigration from specific cou…

"There are rapists and murderers among them" is a very different statement than "they are rapists", which is what Trump actually said. There are rapists and murderers among the citizenry as well. That does not make "Americans are rapists" a true statement. > There is a case for banning immigration from specific countries But that is not what Trump has proposed. He has proposed a ban on Muslims . Muslim is a religion,…

1. you're not taking entire context of that speech, it was entirely about illegals. 2. Has proposed and clarified many times. Btw Muslim ban would be legal but he's not gonna do it so who cares. 3. No not 'debunked' besides you're not thinking logically from a pov if he was who you thought. 4. White suprems don't like Jews. again you're simply not thinking. 5. Worthless comment and you're now ignoring facts of what he's said and lying.

Re: Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not

#127

Post by michaelbuddy » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 1:49 AM UTC

lisper wrote: post #120

michaelbuddy wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

just because somebody wants laws enforced doesn't make them 'xenophobic' And to say having immigration laws with consequences means the U.S. is like the Nazi's? I mean at this point there's really no point to consider you as thinking rationally.

> just because somebody wants laws enforced doesn't make them 'xenophobic' That is certainly true, but Trump has said much more than just calling for law-and-order (which, by the way, is a very loaded term in American politics: the phrase was first used by Richard Nixon as a deliberate code phrase intended to signify solidarity with southern white racists in the 60's). He has also, for example, called out Mexicans fo…

Law and order is not a 'loaded' term. That's just foolishness to think so.

Re: Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not

#128

Post by lisper » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 10:40 AM UTC

michaelbuddy wrote: post #126

lisper wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There are rapists and murderers among them" is a very different statement than "they are rapists", which is what Trump actually said. There are rapists and murderers among the citizenry as well. That does not make "Americans are rapists" a true statement. > There is a case for banning immigration from specific countries But that is not what Trump has proposed. He has proposed a ban on Muslims . Muslim is a religion,…

1. you're not taking entire context of that speech, it was entirely about illegals. 2. Has proposed and clarified many times. Btw Muslim ban would be legal but he's not gonna do it so who cares. 3. No not 'debunked' besides you're not thinking logically from a pov if he was who you thought. 4. White suprems don't like Jews. again you're simply not thinking. 5. Worthless comment and you're now ignoring facts of what h…

> it was entirely about illegals

Yes, of course we're talking about "illegals" (another loaded -- and offensive -- term, BTW). You seem to have completely lost the plot here. We are talking about people who are in the country "illegally" but through no fault of their own. They were brought to this country by their adoptive U.S. citizen parents when they were babies. They have no recollection of the event. (Certainly none of them had any control over it!) They have no memory of their native land, language or culture. They grew up as Americans believing in good faith that they were and are American citizens. And the only thing that makes them not American citizens is some paperwork that their parents failed to complete. But Trump would throw them out along with the rapists and the murderers and anyone else whose papers were not in order.

Re: Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not

#129

Post by lisper » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 10:52 AM UTC

michaelbuddy wrote: post #127

lisper wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just because somebody wants laws enforced doesn't make them 'xenophobic' That is certainly true, but Trump has said much more than just calling for law-and-order (which, by the way, is a very loaded term in American politics: the phrase was first used by Richard Nixon as a deliberate code phrase intended to signify solidarity with southern white racists in the 60's). He has also, for example, called out Mexicans fo…

Law and order is not a 'loaded' term. That's just foolishness to think so.

It is, and I even told you why. Here is some further evidence:

http://www.npr.org/2016/07/28/487560886/is-trumps-call-for-l...

Trump probably did not intend "law and order" to be a coded racist message. His profound ignorance almost certainly does extend to this branch of American political history. But that's irrelevant. A loaded term is loaded whether or not the speaker intends it to be. Nixon denied it too:

"Nixon publicly denied that the phrase was a code for racism — the very accusation implied a "reverse racism," he said, as if the critics were suggesting that "the Negroes" didn't want law and order, too. But the message was clear enough in Nixon's references to a "city jungle" that threatened to swallow the affluent suburbs. His TV ads showed a middle-aged white woman walking nervously down a city street at night, where the assailants who might be lurking in the shadows presumably weren't hippies or demonstrators."

Re: Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not

#130

Post by SapphireSun » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 7:30 PM UTC

michaelbuddy wrote: post #116

SapphireSun wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's okay to foist an injustice upon someone because they were ignorant or lazy? We should be making our social systems fail-safe when the consequences are so severe. It shouldn't be possible to eject someone like that without round after round of appeals and second chances to get good paperwork, and if they were eligible for citizenship, and in good faith relied on the idea that they were citizens, then by all right…

You're actually calling justice / rules 'injustice.' You clearly have never done any of this type of paperwork. It's not actually that hard for one. And there are consequences for things you don't do, whether you're a nice guy, whether you didn't realize something was prohibited. Sucks for some yes because they don't take care of business. But it also sucks when we don't have protective measures in place. And it's bo…

I too always like to start my day with a fresh breath of legalism.

You do have some points, but your examples aren't so good.

1. In your test example, the students didn't know the course material, they just thought they did. They don't actually qualify for an A+. 2. In the scene of the accident, the rule there is in place because there is an incentive to leave the scene of the accident. Ideally, someone who didn't know the law would get a less harsh penalty than someone who did (so intent matters).

In the case above, there is something special happening. The rights of citizenship are on a much higher more protected plane than other rights (as other fundamental rights, voting, residency, amongst others are derived from them). We are allowed to use strict liability for leaving the scene of an accident because it's a shitty thing to do regardless of the law and because while it does affect the fundamental rights of liberty, it is based on something that the person did to deserve a punishment.

In the case of citizenship, if they technically qualify and act as though they do, that should be enough to at least give them the option of taking it retroactively. It's too fundamental for the most simplistic interpretation of bureaucratic rules to suffice.