Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not • Hacker News Board

Re: Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not

#71

Post by PhasmaFelis » Sat, Sep 03, 2016, 9:11 AM UTC

prance wrote: post #39

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've never understood why U.S. is so protective in terms of citizenship. We've got a lot of racist assholes, basically. Particularly ironic for a country that was founded on immigration. These laws, and their heavy-handed enforcement, are mainly targeted at keeping out Mexicans. European and Asian immigrants are collateral damage, essentially. Europe, unfortunately, is starting to go the same way. I think it was Sw…

Why is this down voted? It is the truth.

As I said, xenophobia makes people do ridiculous things.

Re: Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not

#72

Post by Houshalter » Sat, Sep 03, 2016, 9:24 AM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #52

drinchev wrote: post #20

I know a girl that had to leave the U.S. >24 The story ( as far as I can remember ) is that a family of Germans moved to the U.S. with their 1 year old child. 24 years later the child graduated university and ... needs to apply for a green card or permanent VISA. US government refused, so she had to come back to Germany. I've never understood why U.S. is so protective in terms of citizenship. In most of the EU countr…

>I've never understood why U.S. is so protective in terms of citizenship. The American electorate believes unemployment is caused by an improper ratio of people to jobs, and it can be solved both by increasing the number of jobs and decreasing the number of people. In this theory, your friend's expulsion was a victory for the American who took over her job, and for the unemployed person who entered the labor market (…

>It remains this way because Americans do not generally consider or believe Econ 101 ideas

It's not at all clear this violates "Econ 101". Supply and demand set prices, and wages are basically the price for labor. Increasing the supply of labor should necessarily decrease wages, and vice versa.

Imagine the extreme, worst case scenario. If the US opened it's borders completely, and imported every poor worker in the entire world into its borders. Do you really believe that average American worker would be better off? That they could compete with that, and be able to demand a decent wage?

>trade necessarily benefits both sides of the exchange

True, but extremely misleading. E.g. f you move factories overseas for cheaper labor, the local workers lose out, even though other classes may gain. The benefits of trade are not distributed among the entire population.

>cheaper labor => cheaper goods and services

Sure, but if everyone is making proportionally less money, they can't afford the cheaper services, and on net they are poorer.

Re: Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not

#73

Post by zubat » Sat, Sep 03, 2016, 9:38 AM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #52

drinchev wrote: post #20

I know a girl that had to leave the U.S. >24 The story ( as far as I can remember ) is that a family of Germans moved to the U.S. with their 1 year old child. 24 years later the child graduated university and ... needs to apply for a green card or permanent VISA. US government refused, so she had to come back to Germany. I've never understood why U.S. is so protective in terms of citizenship. In most of the EU countr…

>I've never understood why U.S. is so protective in terms of citizenship. The American electorate believes unemployment is caused by an improper ratio of people to jobs, and it can be solved both by increasing the number of jobs and decreasing the number of people. In this theory, your friend's expulsion was a victory for the American who took over her job, and for the unemployed person who entered the labor market (…

The fears of globalization are various and not as simple as a GDP or employment rate. It promotes an uprooting and destabilization of people's lives as everything becomes more competitive. There is no guarantee that you stay near home, work in a familiar culture, build lasting ties in your career. These things aren't strictly a matter of globalization, and their value is not easily measured against the known benefits of bigger markets. But the status quo is to ram free trade down the precariat's throat without allowing protest or negotiation, with a paternalistic "we'll all be better off if you take it on the chin."

Analogies to the enclosure movement come to mind.

Re: Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not

#74

Post by yodsanklai » Sat, Sep 03, 2016, 9:39 AM UTC

drinchev wrote: post #20

I know a girl that had to leave the U.S. >24 The story ( as far as I can remember ) is that a family of Germans moved to the U.S. with their 1 year old child. 24 years later the child graduated university and ... needs to apply for a green card or permanent VISA. US government refused, so she had to come back to Germany. I've never understood why U.S. is so protective in terms of citizenship. In most of the EU countr…

> I've never understood why U.S. is so protective in terms of citizenship. In most of the EU countries you get naturalized ( receive citizenship ) if you spend certain amount of time in the country and pass a test ( Germany I think it's 7 yrs ).

I think it's more complicated than that. My gf has lived more than 10 years in France now and she has to renew her visa every year, they never granted her the 10 years visa, let alone citizenship (she was discouraged to apply for it...).

On the other hand, I have a bunch of friends that obtained their US nationality quite easily. They started as illegal immigrants, got married, which gave them a green card and after a few years they obtained their citizenship.

These are just anecdotes, just to say that it's not so clear that it's harder to get US citizenship.

Re: Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not

#75

Post by jacquesm » Sat, Sep 03, 2016, 9:50 AM UTC

drinchev wrote: post #42

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've never understood why U.S. is so protective in terms of citizenship. We've got a lot of racist assholes, basically. Particularly ironic for a country that was founded on immigration. These laws, and their heavy-handed enforcement, are mainly targeted at keeping out Mexicans. European and Asian immigrants are collateral damage, essentially. Europe, unfortunately, is starting to go the same way. I think it was Sw…

The two stories doesn't match. It was a decision of the girls ( or their father ) [1] not to be naturalized. They could've just did the swim with the boys and they would've got their citizenship. On the other hand my friend had NO CHOICE in her 24 year stay in the U.S. to get a citizenship ( although she followed all the rules / laws of the country ). [1] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/switzerland-c..…

If you think underage muslim girls are normally going to go against the wishes of their father then you clearly don't know much about the kind of patriarchy they are exposed to. Fathers word > law.

Re: Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not

#76

Post by jacquesm » Sat, Sep 03, 2016, 9:54 AM UTC

rcthompson wrote: post #36

rdtsc wrote: post #16

I thought an executive decision is all it's needed but apparently not. Interestingly, there is a special law to expedite naturalization for those who "made an extraordinary contribution to the national security of the United States or to the conduct of United States intelligence activities". But even there it's a 5 person per year maximum. https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title8/html/USCODE... Congress can c…

That sounds like a law written decades ago as a lure for high-value defectors from the USSR during the Cold War.

More likely: those brought over from Nazi Germany to help with rocketry.

Re: Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not

#77

Post by vacri » Sat, Sep 03, 2016, 9:55 AM UTC

kalleboo wrote: post #50

jkot wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe was like that for a long time. France and Germany were vey scared when eastern countries joined EU.

Well, it still is. Just look at Brexit, which was largely driven by eastern immigrants "stealing jobs"

Ironically, according to the BBC, Brexit requires so much in the way of negotiators, and they're suspicious of pulling retired negotiators back into work (as they're overwhelming on the Remain side) that Whitehall is probably going to end up hiring foreign negotiators.

No-one does irony as well as the Brits.

> http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37190357 "In such a febrile atmosphere Whitehall is likely to recruit some negotiators from other countries."

Re: Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not

#78

Post by douche » Sat, Sep 03, 2016, 10:02 AM UTC

wildmusings wrote: post #19

ivanca wrote: post #3

Americans killed all the natives, then they killed all the Mexicans in California (ok "expulsed" some). And now everyone must believe they are the good ones and kicking Latinos is the right thing. You know what, fuck you, prove you are different than ISIS, prove you are rightfully the world police .

You've chosen a nice arbitrary point to start judging people. Europeans didn't disturb some idyllic peace in the Americas. The natives were slaughtering and conquering each other left and right. The difference is that the Europeans had the advanced technology and culture to win.

Unwitting biological warfare helps too. Conquest is a whole lot easier when something that gives your people the sniffles more than decimates your enemies.

But yeah, the Aztecs and the Incas didn't become great empires by sitting around the campfire and singing kumbaya. Which is part of the reason Cortez and Pizarro were able to beat them with such small armies of Spaniards... backed up by tens of thousands of native allies.

Re: Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not

#79

Post by drinchev » Sat, Sep 03, 2016, 10:20 AM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #75

drinchev wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The two stories doesn't match. It was a decision of the girls ( or their father ) [1] not to be naturalized. They could've just did the swim with the boys and they would've got their citizenship. On the other hand my friend had NO CHOICE in her 24 year stay in the U.S. to get a citizenship ( although she followed all the rules / laws of the country ). [1] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/switzerland-c..…

If you think underage muslim girls are normally going to go against the wishes of their father then you clearly don't know much about the kind of patriarchy they are exposed to. Fathers word > law.

Child education comes from 1) parents & 2) society. (1) should not exclude (2) and vice versa.

If the patriarchy family understood the idea of education better, maybe they would've thought their children that the law > father word.

If they do understand that idea, but don't like it. Well they should vote on their next election for someone that doesn't support it.

What they should not do is go against the law and do something on their own. Because that's what makes us all citizens.

Re: Thousands of adoptees thought they were US citizens but learned they are not

#80

Post by Broken_Hippo » Sat, Sep 03, 2016, 10:30 AM UTC

parineum wrote: post #34

drinchev wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well as far as I can remember the story, their parents were there with a working VISA ( extended through time ) and she got at one point ( I think at 18? ) a study VISA until it all expired after university.

Forgive me if this sounds harsh but shouldn't she have applied for a green card as soon as she turned 18? I don't know the ins and outs of immigration but that's because I'm a citizen. If I wasn't, I'd sure as hell know what I needed to do in order to stay in the only country I'd ever known as home.

Part of the problem is more that she might not have had grounds for a green card. Study gets her through school, but afterwards? She'd have to have a job or marry or something similar to be in the programs. And things can go wrong with all of this. The system just doesn't have much to deal with this sort of situation.

And sometimes, these sentiments are easy to say when you are 30, but not so easy to see these things when one is 18, not so easy during the next 4 years as they are in college... and suddenly, crisis.