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Grateful Dead Fan Timothy Tyler Has Been Granted Clemency

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Re: Grateful Dead Fan Timothy Tyler Has Been Granted Clemency

#101

Post by tigershark »

Nursie wrote: post #97
tigershark wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It always amazes me how many people on HN trivialise extremely dangerous drugs saying that alcohol is more dangerous. I'd rather stay in a room with someone that drinks a glass of wine a day than with someone that assumes LSD every day.

The thing is that alcohol is objectively more dangerous and more harmful than many/most illegal drugs. It has both acute and chronic health effects, it's addictive and it causes (or at least facilitates) all sorts of social problems including a lot of violence. It kills its users and its users sometimes kill or hurt other people when under its influence. It always amazes me how willing people are to overlook the evil…

Absolutely no. It may be true to some extent for alcohol abuse. Saying that alcohol is objectively more harmful and dangerous than many/most illegal drugs is simply an outrageous lie. I never saw anyone die for a glass of wine a day, I guess that there is plenty of cases of death for regular drugs users. It's simply disconcerting that you encourage the use of illegal drugs saying that are not dangerous on a public website. I guess that in some countries it may be even a crime, but regardless I find it extremely offending.

Re: Grateful Dead Fan Timothy Tyler Has Been Granted Clemency

#102

Post by Nursie »

tigershark wrote: post #101
Nursie wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is that alcohol is objectively more dangerous and more harmful than many/most illegal drugs. It has both acute and chronic health effects, it's addictive and it causes (or at least facilitates) all sorts of social problems including a lot of violence. It kills its users and its users sometimes kill or hurt other people when under its influence. It always amazes me how willing people are to overlook the evil…

Absolutely no. It may be true to some extent for alcohol abuse . Saying that alcohol is objectively more harmful and dangerous than many/most illegal drugs is simply an outrageous lie. I never saw anyone die for a glass of wine a day, I guess that there is plenty of cases of death for regular drugs users. It's simply disconcerting that you encourage the use of illegal drugs saying that are not dangerous on a public w…

Sorry you disagree but the data really isn't on your side here. I'm not sure why you find it offending.

The line between alcohol use and abuse is a very fine one, plenty of people cross it all the time. Many of them end up dead.

If you look at all the people who try, say, cannabis, and count who gets addicted and who dies or gets sick from it, then compare those percentages to alcohol, alcohol comes out far, far worse.

You don't get to say "it's ok, those people were abusers, users are all fine" because the addictive nature means some users become abusers, and many, many people are harmed by it. That's the whole point of measuring harm, to see what actually happens when humans use these substances in large numbers.

Nowhere have I or will I say that drugs are not dangerous. But I'm afraid it's you that's absolutely wrong about the relative harms here. It's not a lie, I suggest you actually try reading about this sometime.

My recommendation to get started would be "Drugs without the hot air" by Professor David Nutt.

Re: Grateful Dead Fan Timothy Tyler Has Been Granted Clemency

#103

Post by tigershark »

ghshephard wrote: post #65
tigershark wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It always amazes me how many people on HN trivialise extremely dangerous drugs saying that alcohol is more dangerous. I'd rather stay in a room with someone that drinks a glass of wine a day than with someone that assumes LSD every day.

Some objective research is useful here. Lancet did an evaluation across multiple spectrums, harm to self, harm to environment, harm to society, harm to others, crime, etc... ( https://www.researchgate.net/publication/47635105_Nutt_DJ_Ki... ) - in particular, check out the graph down the page. Alcohol is unquestionably the more destructive of substances, LSD ranks far lower in this scale. Importantly, Alcohol results…

Let's give anyone that wants a glass of wine a shot of heroin then, we'll save the world because we are giving them a chance to use a less dangerous drugs. I'll be quite curious to see how it goes, as you say only 25% of heroin users might become addicted. And of course more than 1/4 of the people that drinks a glass of wine is an addict, as you can see around you. :)

Re: Grateful Dead Fan Timothy Tyler Has Been Granted Clemency

#104

Post by Nursie »

tigershark wrote: post #103
ghshephard wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some objective research is useful here. Lancet did an evaluation across multiple spectrums, harm to self, harm to environment, harm to society, harm to others, crime, etc... ( https://www.researchgate.net/publication/47635105_Nutt_DJ_Ki... ) - in particular, check out the graph down the page. Alcohol is unquestionably the more destructive of substances, LSD ranks far lower in this scale. Importantly, Alcohol results…

Let's give anyone that wants a glass of wine a shot of heroin then, we'll save the world because we are giving them a chance to use a less dangerous drugs. I'll be quite curious to see how it goes, as you say only 25% of heroin users might become addicted. And of course more than 1/4 of the people that drinks a glass of wine is an addict, as you can see around you. :)

Where did you read that heroin was less harmful than alcohol?

The post you reply to compares alcohol and LSD. The abstract of the linked paper says that heroin is one of the most harmful drugs, more so than alcohol to the user, but grouped with alcohol in terms of harm to others.

Re: Grateful Dead Fan Timothy Tyler Has Been Granted Clemency

#105

Post by MrJagil »

wvrvwwwe wrote: post #5

This is only related in that it's another person incarcerated over LSD, but I've always found this individual and his story pretty fascinating: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Leonard_Pickard http://www.freeleonardpickard.org/Skinner-Timeline.html The second link discusses Gordon Todd Skinner, who was the informant that facilitated the arrest of Pickard. I don't know how much of that information is accurate, bu…

Here it is in long-form: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9053993 It's a good read.

Re: Grateful Dead Fan Timothy Tyler Has Been Granted Clemency

#106

Post by cmdrfred »

ascorbic wrote: post #58
iconjack wrote: post #12

I will never, ever vote for anyone who supported the drug war. Yes, that includes you, Hillary.

So that one issue wipes out all others? Do you really have no preference as to whether Trump or Hillary wins?

My issue is I simply want someone reasonably honest as President. I have no preference as neither candidate exhibits that behavior.

Re: Grateful Dead Fan Timothy Tyler Has Been Granted Clemency

#107

Post by cmdrfred »

wastedhours wrote: post #73
Nursie wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it wasn't for the effect, nobody would bother acquiring the taste for beer or wine... Alcohol is, for the vast majority of the time, taken solely for the impact on the mind.

Really? I know I have no data to back up my point that all drugs are only taken for their impact on the mind, but I know that alcohol isn't solely taken for its impact on the mind. Wine is tasty. Beer is tasty. Brandy is tasty. And (anecdotally) know many people who aren't just drinking them to get out of their heads...

>Wine is tasty. Beer is tasty. Brandy is tasty. And (anecdotally) know many people who aren't just drinking them to get out of their heads...

I did coke for a few years, at first it tasted gross but I liked the effect by the end it was 'tasty'. That is your brains reward center at work, it shapes experiences that release dopamine and makes them more positive. In reality coke tastes like baby laxatives and bleach and alcohol tastes like fungal piss, as that is what they are.

Re: Grateful Dead Fan Timothy Tyler Has Been Granted Clemency

#108

Post by CoryG89 »

bogomipz wrote: post #64
JohnTHaller wrote: post #11

Those infamous 'carrier weight' LSD laws where the weight of what the single drop of LSD is on counts as part of the drug in calculating the sentencing. And it's not even the dumbest 'war on drugs' law in our arsenal of dumb 'war on drugs' laws.

The carrier weight is significant because its proportional to the amount of substance, the paper is the distribution vector. Someone caught with a sheet of LSD is carrying significantly more than a single tab of LSD. The latter defying "personal consumption. And personal consumption vs intent to distribute is significantly different. While I don't believe that non-violent drug offenders should be locked up for life,…

> The carrier weight is significant because its proportional to the amount of substance

This is not true. I can take a clean sheet of paper and dissolve as much LSD (or as little) on it as desired. 1g of near-pure crystal will definitely contain thousands of doses. 1g of paper could contain anything from 0, 1, 10, or 100 doses or more.

Re: Grateful Dead Fan Timothy Tyler Has Been Granted Clemency

#109

Post by ultramancool »

smcl wrote: post #60
ultramancool wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alcohol is probably only legal because it's easy to make and has existed in the culture for ages, nothing to do with any ailments. History defines the laws far more than logic does.

What do you mean "nothing to do with any ailments"?

Just that the harm caused by it is not a major factory in its legal status.

Re: Grateful Dead Fan Timothy Tyler Has Been Granted Clemency

#110

Post by ultramancool »

cmdrfred wrote: post #107
wastedhours wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? I know I have no data to back up my point that all drugs are only taken for their impact on the mind, but I know that alcohol isn't solely taken for its impact on the mind. Wine is tasty. Beer is tasty. Brandy is tasty. And (anecdotally) know many people who aren't just drinking them to get out of their heads...

>Wine is tasty. Beer is tasty. Brandy is tasty. And (anecdotally) know many people who aren't just drinking them to get out of their heads... I did coke for a few years, at first it tasted gross but I liked the effect by the end it was 'tasty'. That is your brains reward center at work, it shapes experiences that release dopamine and makes them more positive. In reality coke tastes like baby laxatives and bleach and…

Yeah, this is why acquiring the "taste" for a new alcohol often boils down to getting drunk on it a few times.

And annecdotally, most pot smokers didn't like the smell at first, but are now quite pleased by it.

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