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California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

latimes.com

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Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#201

Post by rebel »

gremlinsinc wrote: post #61
jmcgough wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, these are problems that are present for some other schools, but ITT Tech is far worse. For-profit schools aren't even in the same ballpark as other types of schools, in terms of the default rate. These are businesses where the "admissions counselors" are salespeople who are told to lie to people and strongarm them into attending, taking out massive government loans and effectively stealing money from the federal…

why not allow them to operate instead of force them out--make them pay for all defaulted loans above 8% -- that might make them work harder to get their students gainfully employed so they can cover their loans. -- not that I like ITT, I abhor them, and think that Bootcamps are WAY better in terms of quality education and quality of job prospects.

That is an incredibly clever solution. Could you go a step further and reward schools who have a lower default rate as well? Having an institutions incentives aligned with the students sounds like the first step to solving this.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#202

Post by manarth »

headmelted wrote: post #119

Reading the comments here has been really eye opening to me. I always knew that tuition was orders-of-magnitude more expensive across the Atlantic but now it's a bit clearer why. Here (Northern Ireland, but it applies to the UK as a whole), students don't start to repay their loans until their earnings are over a certain threshold, then repayments are proportional to how much they earn over that level. If their annua…

> I can't remember exactly what my interest rate was but I know it was fixed BELOW the central bank rate at the time

The current calculation for the interest rate on UK student loans is (RPI + X)% (where X varies from 0 for people earning less than £21k, to 3 for people earning £41k pa or more).

There have been some moans about the interest rate; firstly because RPI is consistently higher than CPI, and secondly because both are consistently higher than the BoE's base rate. Still, it's a darn sight better than the other side of the pond.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#203

Post by distances »

KennyCason wrote: post #178
headmelted wrote: post #119

Reading the comments here has been really eye opening to me. I always knew that tuition was orders-of-magnitude more expensive across the Atlantic but now it's a bit clearer why. Here (Northern Ireland, but it applies to the UK as a whole), students don't start to repay their loans until their earnings are over a certain threshold, then repayments are proportional to how much they earn over that level. If their annua…

In my case, after graduating I was 43k in debt and at 7% interest. I had to consolidate because if you don't you end up with 14 loans and having to pay around 1500 / month. Which is impossible for most new grads. You don't have to pay if your income is low after graduation by opting into "loan forbearance". However, this is a death trap as well as the loan continues to accrue interest! Needless to say, young dumb me…

I don't know how long ago that was, but 7% sounds crazy high for something you can't shake off with bankruptcy proceedings.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#204

Post by Blackthorn »

pessimizer wrote: post #195
Blackthorn wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment is bullshit. Some of the best people I've worked with, both in and out of college, didn't even begin programming until taking their first CS course in college. No cheating or adderall involved. You aren't doomed or damaged if you haven't programmed before hitting college. Claiming that is slandering a generation of engineers.

I'm criticizing a lot of CS programs, not programmers who didn't program before college. There are plenty of good programmers who never attended college for computers at all. My own mother started programming after majoring in English in college, learning in a training program at her job in her mid-20s (because she wanted to move out of a management track.) She went on to a 40 year career, and inspired me to become a…

> but you would probably have to skip the second sentence of the first paragraph, and the first parenthetical in item 2

No, I think you're just poor at communicating. Your claim was "After the second semester, CS students divide into three groups", and then listed those three groups, zero of which involved a person who was new to programming doing well. You had every opportunity to hedge your statement, and you did not.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#205

Post by bane »

One of the things that's very interesting to me is how information asymmetry helps drive people to these kinds of companies. I don't know everybody's story, but when I was just out of high school, there was no chance (I believed at the time) that I'd be able to go to a traditional school. I had bad grades, my family was poor and nobody in my family had gone to university except for my father, who had quickly abandoned his post-University career for more blue collar work.

Wanting to try to make over minimum wage, I went to an ITT-like trade school to talk with an "admissions counselor" seeing if they would accept me (of course they would, for a price). I took a fairly simple "placement exam" (which of course I passed). I told the counselor I didn't have any money (no problem!) I was then shown a variety of ultra high-interest loan options which would guarantee I could get through the "program" (just sign here!). I remember getting odd, cagey, answers about the accreditation of the trade school, and couldn't imagine how I'd pay back a loan that large if I took it on.

I had the presence of mind to "let me think about it" instead of giving in to the hard pressure sale the guidance counselor was offering, went on to work my crappy jobs for a couple more years before accidentally running into an old friend who grew up in a similar situation as me and ended up going the community college route.

It was "real" college (for some value of "real" and "college"), was a tiny fraction of the cost of the trade school, and graduation guaranteed placement in a state school of my choice. That sounded too good to be true, at least the trade school had some kind of real cost associated with it. But I went and checked it out, it was all true. A.S.->B.S.->M.S. and now I have a career, no student debt and choice of great high-paying jobs.

Later, while I was attending community college, a coworker was going to that same trade school, hemorrhaging money and then one monday came in and told a story where they had gone out of business, didn't tell anybody, and just padlocked the doors over the weekend.

Of course he still owed all the money for his loans.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#206

Post by bane »

jeffdavis wrote: post #118
jmcgough wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, these are problems that are present for some other schools, but ITT Tech is far worse. For-profit schools aren't even in the same ballpark as other types of schools, in terms of the default rate. These are businesses where the "admissions counselors" are salespeople who are told to lie to people and strongarm them into attending, taking out massive government loans and effectively stealing money from the federal…

22% vs 8% is not as big of a difference as I expected. It is plausible to explain that difference by the type of students likely to attend ITT vs a 4 year public university.

The students who are likely to go to these trade schools are often better served by the Community College system, but often don't know/understand it as an option.

One interesting statistic, those students also default.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#207

Post by HarryHirsch »

WalterBright wrote: post #161
yamike wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who attended ITT Tech I feel that their recruitment practices were at least somewhat predatory. The same sort of practice whereby used care salesmen will tell you what you need to pay per month without ever making it clear what the total cost is. All the while of course they knew that most of the money would come from federal student loans. These happen to be loans that the students can never escape. Buyer…

> The same sort of practice whereby used care salesmen will tell you what you need to pay per month without ever making it clear what the total cost is. The instructor of my accounting class was a former used car salesman. He said that his customers didn't want to hear about total cost, they were only interested in the monthly payment. He'd try to explain, and they'd cut him off and go for whatever had the lowest mon…

they'd cut him off and go for whatever had the lowest monthly payment

What if this were a rational decision? For a person with low disposable income and no savings choosing the lowest monthly payment is the most rational decision.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#208

Post by rwmurrayVT »

buddylw wrote: post #47
rdtsc wrote: post #18

Are there any good ITT / University of Phoenix type schools? They all seem like scams. I don't count community colleges here, I know those can be very good. My wife went to one, got great education, was able to pay it by just budgeting money every month out of her part time work. Then switched to a 4 years univeristy, transfered credits and graduated with honors after 2 more years (with minimal loans). Would it be ha…

The quality of education varies between institutions. I graduated from DeVry a little over 10 years ago. I got a decent education (ABET accredited B.S. Computer Engineering Technology) and was able to put myself through school and get a good job. I could have done it a little cheaper in a state school and a lot cheaper with a community college, but for what it was I don't really have any regrets. My only critique is…

Interestingly enough, I found out quite a few years ago that my father followed the same path as you. I had always known he went to a university, graduated in computer science, and worked as a database administrator. I never knew which school he attended. When I found out I asked him if it was the same university I saw in computer/television ads and he said yes.

After a bit more discussion I think it's safe to say that DeVry is (or was between his time in the 80s and your time) a different breed of school than ITT. They seem to be a real school that just accepts anyone. Drop out/Graduation rates be damned.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#209

Post by 6DM »

distances wrote: post #203
KennyCason wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my case, after graduating I was 43k in debt and at 7% interest. I had to consolidate because if you don't you end up with 14 loans and having to pay around 1500 / month. Which is impossible for most new grads. You don't have to pay if your income is low after graduation by opting into "loan forbearance". However, this is a death trap as well as the loan continues to accrue interest! Needless to say, young dumb me…

I don't know how long ago that was, but 7% sounds crazy high for something you can't shake off with bankruptcy proceedings.

I was applying for more loans to finish up college when they told me my intrest would be 8% for this loan. I said, "wow" (catches breath) "isn't that a little high?" I will never in my life forget what that woman said to me. "You should be thankful, other students are getting 11%"

This was in 2010, shortly before I graduated they made it impossible to ever get out of these loans with the new bankruptcy thing.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#210

Post by bane »

headmelted wrote: post #119

Reading the comments here has been really eye opening to me. I always knew that tuition was orders-of-magnitude more expensive across the Atlantic but now it's a bit clearer why. Here (Northern Ireland, but it applies to the UK as a whole), students don't start to repay their loans until their earnings are over a certain threshold, then repayments are proportional to how much they earn over that level. If their annua…

When I went to school, not even two decades ago, the cost was much much lower here (in the U.S.). The recent explosion in tuition is very recent, and very troubling.

As an example, I received 6 years (equivalent) of University education, earned two A.S. degrees, a B.S. degree and an M.S. degree in that time for around $26,000 or an average of around $4,400/year. It got more expensive as time went on, I switched from local community college to state school and went for my M.S., but my salary also increased rapidly during this time.

Today, that amount would barely cover 2 years of education. Even with inflation this is terrible growth in expense.

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