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A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

nytimes.com

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Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#91

Post by berntb »

zigzigzag wrote: post #89
berntb wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are not talking just "a government agenda" -- as far as I've seen, the whole democratic world (not only USA and Sweden) say something quite similar regarding Russian propaganda.

How are you measuring what the "democratic world" says, exactly? What it's media says? Isn't Donald Trump making waves right now for having improbably high support despite thinking Putin is not so bad after all? Dumb though Trump may be he is without a doubt a key part of the "democratic world" right now.

1. Can you condemn Putin for starting wars and annexing area in Europe, just like Hitler in the 1930s? If you refuse I will assume that you work for the Russian junta. (To _only_ condemn USA instead is not an answer.)

2. My sources are e.g. what is said by common EU institutions and by state chiefs in the EU. Like here http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-eu-31932005 BBC is just part of the anti Russian global conspiracy..?

(And you contradict that "the whole democratic world" is saying the same thing -- with what one of the newer populists (that isn't even elected yet) said about something else... Is that REALLY the only argument you have...?!)

Edit: reformatted to make it clearer.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#92

Post by kozak »

cancancan wrote: post #73
dmytrish wrote: post #46

As a witness of protests at Maidan square in Kiev, I was staggered by the depiction of the events in Russian medias: it was a heavily engineered and coherently orchestrated image full of humongous distortions to the point of creating a parallel reality. Their usual tool is taking an insignificant trend/event that fits their needs and blowing it out of proportions ("nazi" at Maidan, "repressed Russian-speaking populat…

But neo-nazis like Andriy Parubiy did play a significant role. The guy founded Social-National Party of Ukraine together with Oleh Tyahnybok. There's nothing "nazi" about them, they are nazi and they're not trying to hide it at all. Look at the logo of the party they founded, look at the Azov Battalion insignia. Parubiy first became the head of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council mostly managing paramilit…

That's actually a nice example of the very propaganda we are speaking about. It's hard to find someone farther removed from being a "nazi" than Parubiy. And yet, here this comment is, coming from a freshly registered account.

And the Azov insignia is just a stylized state emblem of Ukraine. Seeing swastikas everywhere is an important part of the approach, I guess.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#93

Post by bbctol »

gfosco wrote: post #63
dmytrish wrote: post #46

As a witness of protests at Maidan square in Kiev, I was staggered by the depiction of the events in Russian medias: it was a heavily engineered and coherently orchestrated image full of humongous distortions to the point of creating a parallel reality. Their usual tool is taking an insignificant trend/event that fits their needs and blowing it out of proportions ("nazi" at Maidan, "repressed Russian-speaking populat…

The same shit is happening here. Massive distortion of reality and epic-level propaganda on US media. We need to always be skeptical of the pushed narrative.

There's media manipulation, but it's more by private companies than the state. Which is definitely also troubling, but at least we get three or four different pushed narratives to choose from, instead of the true Russian reality distortion field.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#94

Post by akjj »

dleslie wrote: post #69
akjj wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this ironic? I'm struggling to find a reasonable interpretation for this claim other than "The NY Times has been wrong about issues of spying and propaganda before, therefore it's not worth my time to consider the claims in this article, and I dismiss it completely." Which is a reasonable thing to believe. A little harsh in my opinion, but reasonable can disagree. However, it's definitely not ironic. Even if y…

I did not dismiss the notion that Russia produces propaganda; Russia produces propaganda. Generally, I expect that those alleging wrong doing are not engaging in the same; and so it appears ironic when an exposed agent of state propaganda alleges that a state is engaging in propaganda. It's a, "well yes, and you would know" sort of humour. Let those without sin cast the first stones, and all that.

The root of the disagreement seems to be that you read the article as condemnation and I read it as a news story. In any case, I stand by my reading that this a piece of news and any heavy moralizing is a gloss you've imposed.

> so it appears ironic when an exposed agent of state propaganda alleges that a state is engaging in propaganda. It's a, "well yes, and you would know" sort of humour.

I'd say it's more of a "rain on your wedding day" sort of irony.

If the article were planted by the CIA, that would be ironic. If the article were planted by the FSB, that would be even more ironic. But "NY Times reports on foreign propaganda" is not ironic.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#95

Post by _delirium »

kozak wrote: post #92
cancancan wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But neo-nazis like Andriy Parubiy did play a significant role. The guy founded Social-National Party of Ukraine together with Oleh Tyahnybok. There's nothing "nazi" about them, they are nazi and they're not trying to hide it at all. Look at the logo of the party they founded, look at the Azov Battalion insignia. Parubiy first became the head of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council mostly managing paramilit…

That's actually a nice example of the very propaganda we are speaking about. It's hard to find someone farther removed from being a "nazi" than Parubiy. And yet, here this comment is, coming from a freshly registered account. And the Azov insignia is just a stylized state emblem of Ukraine. Seeing swastikas everywhere is an important part of the approach, I guess.

It's hardly only Russian media has pointed out a connection between the Azov Battalion and neo-Nazism. Even the United States Congress, usually no friend of Russia, cut off funding in 2015 due to these connections. There's a bit of a summary here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion#Neo-Nazi_ideolo...

The leader of the battalion, Biletsky, is also involved in this nice organization: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social-National_Assembly

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#96

Post by kozak »

_delirium wrote: post #95
kozak wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's actually a nice example of the very propaganda we are speaking about. It's hard to find someone farther removed from being a "nazi" than Parubiy. And yet, here this comment is, coming from a freshly registered account. And the Azov insignia is just a stylized state emblem of Ukraine. Seeing swastikas everywhere is an important part of the approach, I guess.

It's hardly only Russian media has pointed out a connection between the Azov Battalion and neo-Nazism. Even the United States Congress, usually no friend of Russia, cut off funding in 2015 due to these connections. There's a bit of a summary here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion#Neo-Nazi_ideolo... The leader of the battalion, Biletsky, is also involved in this nice organization: https://en.wikipedia.org/…

Azov are kind of right-wing (although not outright "nazi"), but this judgement is not (and should not be) based on how their insignia looks. And also, Azov has no connection to Parubiy at all (Azov just reused that unlucky old logo out of the blue).

There is a cultural difference in what Ukrainians and Russians mean when they say "nation". In Ukraine, when you say "nation" you mean basically the same as what a USA president would mean under this word. But in Russia, the word "nation" is considered to be synonymous with "nazi", and is generally avoided.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#97

Post by internaut »

tptacek wrote: post #30
lipun4u wrote: post #27

Both Russian and American medias are two sides of same coin. Both are expert in spreading propaganda, only difference is American media is convincing and Russian media appears to be fake and there is no freedom of media in Russia and freedom of media is rarely used in the US. I follow RT and NYTimes, and I can say both have left journalism long back.

Whatever anyone's qualms about the New York Times, I find it hard to take seriously any argument that puts it on the same level as RT. The New York Times is not in fact an instrument of the US Government.

Here is a different take on the subject tptacek.

It is unlikely that NYT is ordered to produce stories according to the current administration's liking. Broadly in the West we don't go in for that sort of thing and one hopes we never will.

We don't like being told what to think. The trouble though, is that all ideas have to come from somewhere.

The power of Western style propaganda is that the government does not have to orchestrate it as intensely as in autocracies. It happens automatically because they live and breathe the same air. The relationship is more symbiotic.

If you have real power, you can afford not to be petty. That is the same deal as with the Joker in the medieval court with the King. A government official only kills journalists were they a real threat to his power. If you punish people for a small degree of insolence it is because you are not secure in your power and any provocation could be used to coordinate an attack to displace you. Being 'above' that is a tacit demonstration of power and stability (a good thing!).

What is the practical difference between the information printed by the New York Times and the opinions of the State Department?

I cannot think of any. Any divisions I see are also expressed within the government itself. So they must be coordinated. But is it really from government to media?

The neo-reactionary take is basically the exact reverse of this:

"The New York Times is not in fact an instrument of the US Government."

That's not as whack-a-doodle as it at first sounds. The New York Times is the mouth of a much larger network they refer to as the Cathedral, just as Christianity is not just the physical Vatican City.

This is not necessarily an 'evil' to vanquish, but it does mean if the NYT is misguided on some subject, then it invariably also means the government too is running into the same dead end.

The long and short of it is that the press and the government sup from the same pool of propaganda while they generate it, they believe in their own manufactures. I hope this makes sense to you.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#98

Post by dleslie »

berntb wrote: post #83
dleslie wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not dismiss the notion that Russia produces propaganda; Russia produces propaganda. Generally, I expect that those alleging wrong doing are not engaging in the same; and so it appears ironic when an exposed agent of state propaganda alleges that a state is engaging in propaganda. It's a, "well yes, and you would know" sort of humour. Let those without sin cast the first stones, and all that.

1. I am sorry, but you will have to settle for very light gray and very dark gray. Not black and white. 2. It is not just the media of US and Sweden -- most of the democratic world say the same thing. For most subjects, the democratic countries disagree.

I am attempting to argue for shades of grey; the American and Russian media narratives evoke a polarized situation.

In that manner of thinking, I think it's fair to question the messenger who brings accusations of wrongdoing during a politically sensitive time. That is to say, this reporting came at a serendipitously good time for certain politicians.

That everyone does it doesn't mean that everyone does it to the same extent, or with the same impact, or that doing it is at all justifiable.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#99

Post by dleslie »

berntb wrote: post #91
zigzigzag wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you measuring what the "democratic world" says, exactly? What it's media says? Isn't Donald Trump making waves right now for having improbably high support despite thinking Putin is not so bad after all? Dumb though Trump may be he is without a doubt a key part of the "democratic world" right now.

1. Can you condemn Putin for starting wars and annexing area in Europe, just like Hitler in the 1930s? If you refuse I will assume that you work for the Russian junta. (To _only_ condemn USA instead is not an answer.) 2. My sources are e.g. what is said by common EU institutions and by state chiefs in the EU. Like here http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-eu-31932005 BBC is just part of the anti Russian global conspiracy..?…

Military actions of aggression should be condemned, regardless of whether we call it a war.

Russia annexing Crimea was one such action. The entire American operation in Iraq is another.

Russia and the USA are more alike then their populations are comfortable admitting. Oligarchies cynically masquerading as democracies.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#100

Post by cancancan »

kozak wrote: post #92
cancancan wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But neo-nazis like Andriy Parubiy did play a significant role. The guy founded Social-National Party of Ukraine together with Oleh Tyahnybok. There's nothing "nazi" about them, they are nazi and they're not trying to hide it at all. Look at the logo of the party they founded, look at the Azov Battalion insignia. Parubiy first became the head of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council mostly managing paramilit…

That's actually a nice example of the very propaganda we are speaking about. It's hard to find someone farther removed from being a "nazi" than Parubiy. And yet, here this comment is, coming from a freshly registered account. And the Azov insignia is just a stylized state emblem of Ukraine. Seeing swastikas everywhere is an important part of the approach, I guess.

The funny thing is that Tyahnybok is the one that tried to tone down the Parubiy's nazi-like styling. Parubiy was involved in pretty much all neo-nazi and ultra right groups. Social-National Party of Ukraine, Patriot of Ukraine, Svoboda, various paramilitary units, etc.

> Seeing swastikas everywhere is an important part of the approach, I guess.

That's a nice way to dismiss it, but it doesn't help the fact that they went to a great length to emulate the nazi branding. The name of the party, lovely evening torchlight parades [1], and even the decorations at speaking events [2].

1] http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/04/30/article-2616531-1D...

2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Second_Congress_of_the_Pa...

EDIT: some formatting issues

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