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A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

nytimes.com

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Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#81

Post by bfuller »

dmytrish wrote: post #46

As a witness of protests at Maidan square in Kiev, I was staggered by the depiction of the events in Russian medias: it was a heavily engineered and coherently orchestrated image full of humongous distortions to the point of creating a parallel reality. Their usual tool is taking an insignificant trend/event that fits their needs and blowing it out of proportions ("nazi" at Maidan, "repressed Russian-speaking populat…

Do you think it is any different in the USA or any other country for that matter?

I don't know the answer but it stands to reason that if it works for the Russians it will work for the US aswell

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#82

Post by rz2k »

bfuller wrote: post #81
dmytrish wrote: post #46

As a witness of protests at Maidan square in Kiev, I was staggered by the depiction of the events in Russian medias: it was a heavily engineered and coherently orchestrated image full of humongous distortions to the point of creating a parallel reality. Their usual tool is taking an insignificant trend/event that fits their needs and blowing it out of proportions ("nazi" at Maidan, "repressed Russian-speaking populat…

Do you think it is any different in the USA or any other country for that matter? I don't know the answer but it stands to reason that if it works for the Russians it will work for the US aswell

Yes, it's different.

Ask former classmates or relatives who went into journalism. You may hear they are reluctant to pursue some stories because they don't have enough proof to protect themselves against powerful people the stories could be construed to be slandering, but it's almost unheard of for western journalists to be worried about being assassinated at the rate journalists are assassinated in Russia and the territories it dominates.

Watch talks given by Russian journalists before they were assassinated or after they fled. Even compare them to American journalists who died in uncertain circumstances, or whistle blowers like Edward Snowden.

It's an entirely different ballgame.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#83

Post by berntb »

dleslie wrote: post #69
akjj wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this ironic? I'm struggling to find a reasonable interpretation for this claim other than "The NY Times has been wrong about issues of spying and propaganda before, therefore it's not worth my time to consider the claims in this article, and I dismiss it completely." Which is a reasonable thing to believe. A little harsh in my opinion, but reasonable can disagree. However, it's definitely not ironic. Even if y…

I did not dismiss the notion that Russia produces propaganda; Russia produces propaganda. Generally, I expect that those alleging wrong doing are not engaging in the same; and so it appears ironic when an exposed agent of state propaganda alleges that a state is engaging in propaganda. It's a, "well yes, and you would know" sort of humour. Let those without sin cast the first stones, and all that.

1. I am sorry, but you will have to settle for very light gray and very dark gray. Not black and white.

2. It is not just the media of US and Sweden -- most of the democratic world say the same thing. For most subjects, the democratic countries disagree.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#84

Post by faebi »

I clearly do not want to support russian propaganda but as european I distrust the usa as much as russia. The usa has a way to big influence on european media. Its very nicely described in this video of german satire show "Die Anstalt" how big german media companies are financed and controlled through transatlactic companies: https://youtu.be/1ntSxZatFv8 (only german, couldn't find one with english subtitles). There is also a nice video of young journalist Tilo Jung how he asks german government about the fact that russia is renewing their atomic weapons (its bad) and then he asks what they think about the fact that the usa is doing the same inside germany with their atomic weapons (good).

Also they descripe nicely how the usa is and was destabelising the near east and we europeans have this huge crisis next to us now because of those actions. https://youtu.be/MCjeHLjyiMo

In the end for me the usa is playing this game of the good and the bad as much as russia is and as a european I see ourselfs in another political situation than good and bad, we are something third.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#85

Post by golergka »

bfuller wrote: post #81
dmytrish wrote: post #46

As a witness of protests at Maidan square in Kiev, I was staggered by the depiction of the events in Russian medias: it was a heavily engineered and coherently orchestrated image full of humongous distortions to the point of creating a parallel reality. Their usual tool is taking an insignificant trend/event that fits their needs and blowing it out of proportions ("nazi" at Maidan, "repressed Russian-speaking populat…

Do you think it is any different in the USA or any other country for that matter? I don't know the answer but it stands to reason that if it works for the Russians it will work for the US aswell

It only works when media have been monopolized. All media in Russia that have not enjoyed full government editorial control have debunked these stories quite spectacularly, but now they're almost non-existent.

This would never work in a media world with a Daily Show, for once.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#86

Post by golergka »

ariwilson wrote: post #38

Based on the number of false equivalencies and specious arguments in this comment thread, it looks like the Russian trolls also have Hacker News on their roster of Western social media sites.

Definetly. HN may not have a huge audience, but it's a very common source of news and articles that later get republished in other aggregators; I would bet they'd use more subtle tactics there though.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#88

Post by zigzigzag »

ariwilson wrote: post #38

Based on the number of false equivalencies and specious arguments in this comment thread, it looks like the Russian trolls also have Hacker News on their roster of Western social media sites.

This comment is so typical of any story that discusses Russia these days: a flat out rejection of the idea that people who disagree might just be people who disagree. You're either against Russia or you're paid by them/are them.

It's ridiculous and just makes the anti-Russia position look piss weak, or even like propaganda itself. And I say that as a man born in western Europe who has never even been to Russia, but this business of constantly painting anyone who doesn't toe the party line as a paid troll is disgusting.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#89

Post by zigzigzag »

berntb wrote: post #54
laretluval wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just a matter of the moral equivalence of propaganda, but of credibility. When a major media outlet is pushing a narrative that supports a government agenda, skepticism is warranted.

We are not talking just "a government agenda" -- as far as I've seen, the whole democratic world (not only USA and Sweden) say something quite similar regarding Russian propaganda.

How are you measuring what the "democratic world" says, exactly? What it's media says?

Isn't Donald Trump making waves right now for having improbably high support despite thinking Putin is not so bad after all? Dumb though Trump may be he is without a doubt a key part of the "democratic world" right now.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#90

Post by zigzigzag »

tptacek wrote: post #30
lipun4u wrote: post #27

Both Russian and American medias are two sides of same coin. Both are expert in spreading propaganda, only difference is American media is convincing and Russian media appears to be fake and there is no freedom of media in Russia and freedom of media is rarely used in the US. I follow RT and NYTimes, and I can say both have left journalism long back.

Whatever anyone's qualms about the New York Times, I find it hard to take seriously any argument that puts it on the same level as RT. The New York Times is not in fact an instrument of the US Government.

As a non-American who follows US politics closely, the NYT might as well be run by the US Government: as far as I can tell the worldviews of the people who run the NYT are identical to those who run the USA and so it's not surprising that it's so often viewed as a mouthpiece. This specific story being a case in point.

Just look at how they handled GWB's "War on Terror", or NSA revelations etc. They just sat on them, despite how newsworthy they were. Too often it was foreign media that broke the stories.

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