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A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

nytimes.com

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Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#71

Post by dleslie »

tnones wrote: post #56
bobthechef wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have gotten the exact opposite impression. Maybe 25+ years ago when many Westerns on the hard left naively celebrated communism and the Soviet Union, but the only people who seem to sympathize with Russia are those on the alt-right who wish that the POTUS had the chutzpah of Putin when dealing with foreign adversaries.

The irony of using "alt-right" in this discussion is also delicious, considering it's turned into a pit for people to be thrown into by the media rather than a label for those who adopted it.

Alt-Right is the new catch-all for dismissive responses, now that Conspiracy Theorist has lost its efficacy for this purpose.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#72

Post by extra88 »

bobthechef wrote: post #55
dleslie wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be fair if the source of the allegations wasn't likewise tainted. Russia engages in propaganda, and this is abundantly obvious; it would be nice if those claiming such were forward and honest about their own ethical deviancies and the actions of their own state. It is tiresome to hear but one side of the concern from the media.

As Chomsky says, propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state. The NYT is very much an American pro-establishment paper staffed by upper middle class ivy league graduates. If the NYT isn't intentionally slanting the news in its favor, then it is merely reflecting the slant that is rather uniform among its journalists and editors.

If it's not intentional, it's not propaganda.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#73

Post by cancancan »

dmytrish wrote: post #46

As a witness of protests at Maidan square in Kiev, I was staggered by the depiction of the events in Russian medias: it was a heavily engineered and coherently orchestrated image full of humongous distortions to the point of creating a parallel reality. Their usual tool is taking an insignificant trend/event that fits their needs and blowing it out of proportions ("nazi" at Maidan, "repressed Russian-speaking populat…

But neo-nazis like Andriy Parubiy did play a significant role.

The guy founded Social-National Party of Ukraine together with Oleh Tyahnybok. There's nothing "nazi" about them, they are nazi and they're not trying to hide it at all. Look at the logo of the party they founded, look at the Azov Battalion insignia.

Parubiy first became the head of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council mostly managing paramilitary units and now he is the chairman of the Ukrainian parliament. Tyahnybok made it to the top list of antisemites, published by the Simon Wiesenthal Center.

Journalist in Kiev are being killed on a regular basis. Alexander Shchetinin was found shot dead in his apartment today. A month ago car bomb killed Pavel Sheremet.

Russian trolls are the least of your problems.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#74

Post by dleslie »

tptacek wrote: post #32
dleslie wrote: post #16

The New York Times has a long history of cooperating with three-letter agencies as a state mouthpiece. The irony of their publishing this article is delicious.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes

This is in references to illogical comparisons.

"How long does it take a soviet to earn enough to buy a car?" "Well, you lynch black people."

This is not that situation; it is one's state propaganda and another's state propaganda.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#75

Post by rbanffy »

dmytrish wrote: post #67
hcarvalhoalves wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Besides Russia, I see the same on Venezuelan and Brazilian media, at different levels of intensity. What these countries have in common?

It's hard for me to guess, maybe centralization of media makes it so attractive for governments to distort information. When there are at least two sides loudly confronting each other, the general picture gets much better. A curious example: Ukrainian media channels are mostly funded by local oligarchs, but each of them has different agenda and interests, so they often fight each other, and that produces an external…

> the general picture gets much better.

Not really. You can just be sure one side is lying and, if one is, both can be. When that happens, the mainstream narratives get discredited and marginal ones gain traction.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#76

Post by rbanffy »

gfosco wrote: post #63
dmytrish wrote: post #46

As a witness of protests at Maidan square in Kiev, I was staggered by the depiction of the events in Russian medias: it was a heavily engineered and coherently orchestrated image full of humongous distortions to the point of creating a parallel reality. Their usual tool is taking an insignificant trend/event that fits their needs and blowing it out of proportions ("nazi" at Maidan, "repressed Russian-speaking populat…

The same shit is happening here. Massive distortion of reality and epic-level propaganda on US media. We need to always be skeptical of the pushed narrative.

I think the US has a slightly different problem, and it's much scarier than an external opponent alone.

http://billmoyers.com/story/donald-trump-and-the-walter-winc...

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#77

Post by DenisM »

dleslie wrote: post #57
metamicah wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NYT admits in this death notice for a spy that it was it manipulated by the CIA: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/10/us/austin-goodrich-spy-who... In 1976 George HW Bush declared that the CIA wouldn't manipulate the media anymore but this NYT article from a couple months later shows the feds backpedaling on that promise, along with some specific examples of media manipulation from the time: http://www.nytimes.com/1…

Indeed. See also: Operation Mockingbird It's likely that the state agencies have learned to better avoid the exposure of these sorts of programs. Regardless, The Intercept has more than a few stories[0], and Chomsky has shared his opinion[1]. Then there's the small matter of this[2]. And on and on; much of it is hard to verify, like Eglin Air Force base and its Reddit links. 0: https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3At…

Spreading propaganda is not the same as cooperation with the TLAs. If you read Chomsky in detail, he is describing exactly how this works, and it does not involve spies telling the NYT what to write. It's a lot more gentle.

Seriously, if you're so keen to criticize the western media you might as well do it right. Chomsky wrote several books (E.g. Understanding Power) documenting and detailing how it works.

Now, back to where we started. Where is your evidence specifically for "The New York Times has a long history of cooperating with three-letter agencies"?

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#78

Post by DenisM »

metamicah wrote: post #40
DenisM wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide some sources? Thanks.

The NYT admits in this death notice for a spy that it was it manipulated by the CIA: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/10/us/austin-goodrich-spy-who... In 1976 George HW Bush declared that the CIA wouldn't manipulate the media anymore but this NYT article from a couple months later shows the feds backpedaling on that promise, along with some specific examples of media manipulation from the time: http://www.nytimes.com/1…

> “in a few instances the organizations were aware of the C.I.A. connection, but most of them appear not to have been.”

Really? This counts as "a long history of cooperating with three-letter agencies" in your book?

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#80

Post by woodandsteel »

gfosco wrote: post #63
dmytrish wrote: post #46

As a witness of protests at Maidan square in Kiev, I was staggered by the depiction of the events in Russian medias: it was a heavily engineered and coherently orchestrated image full of humongous distortions to the point of creating a parallel reality. Their usual tool is taking an insignificant trend/event that fits their needs and blowing it out of proportions ("nazi" at Maidan, "repressed Russian-speaking populat…

The same shit is happening here. Massive distortion of reality and epic-level propaganda on US media. We need to always be skeptical of the pushed narrative.

The idea that the media in the US is pure government propaganda. There is vigorous debate on innumerable issues. Think for instance of the climate change debate, or Middle East policy. In Russia you don't have that at all.

One of the basic tactics of pro-Russian propagandists is to not deny that the media in Russia is all propaganda, but try to persuade people that the same is true everywhere else.

The idea is that people won't know what ideas to trust, and will become cynical and apathetic. Once that happens Russia can simply expand unopposed.

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