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A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

nytimes.com

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Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#61

Post by bobthechef »

Grue3 wrote: post #17
anc84 wrote: post #2

That is one one-sided anti-propaganda-propaganda piece. Let's not pretend that any government does not do the same to others, eh?

Ah, typical whataboutism. Because the Russian propaganda is so extreme in distorting the truth, everyone else must do the same. Reminds me of people who compare the political movements they don't like to ISIS, because "both are bad".

True, one must not only remember differences in kind but also in degree, though frankly the difference between Russia and the US is historically one of kind, though certainly not to the degree that the Cold War high school history books would suggest.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#62

Post by akjj »

dleslie wrote: post #16

The New York Times has a long history of cooperating with three-letter agencies as a state mouthpiece. The irony of their publishing this article is delicious.

Why is this ironic? I'm struggling to find a reasonable interpretation for this claim other than "The NY Times has been wrong about issues of spying and propaganda before, therefore it's not worth my time to consider the claims in this article, and I dismiss it completely." Which is a reasonable thing to believe. A little harsh in my opinion, but reasonable can disagree. However, it's definitely not ironic.

Even if you believe that the NY Times is nothing more than an appendage of the US security establishment, then it's completely straightforward that the establishment would be trying to counteract the propaganda. It's certainly not ironic for the CIA to try to identify and stop foreign spies even as it itself uses spies, or that the military builds armor even as it also uses guns, is it?

If you believe that the NY Times has an institutional position that propaganda is always and forever a legitimate tool of the government, then there's no contradiction if they also call out propaganda for the purpose of neutralizing it.

If you believe that the NY Times is more or less a legitimate news organization that maybe has made mistakes in the past, then I think the article is newsworthy and relevant.

I keep seeing discussion of Russian involvement in other countries' politics dismissed as ironic, which seems to just be a rhetorical trick to make it sound like there's a more sophisticated argument than just "I don't believe that source".

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#63

Post by gfosco »

dmytrish wrote: post #46

As a witness of protests at Maidan square in Kiev, I was staggered by the depiction of the events in Russian medias: it was a heavily engineered and coherently orchestrated image full of humongous distortions to the point of creating a parallel reality. Their usual tool is taking an insignificant trend/event that fits their needs and blowing it out of proportions ("nazi" at Maidan, "repressed Russian-speaking populat…

The same shit is happening here. Massive distortion of reality and epic-level propaganda on US media. We need to always be skeptical of the pushed narrative.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#64

Post by rbanffy »

laretluval wrote: post #43

How great that the American information distribution system lets us see the truth, whereas the Russian one just fills heads with nonstop lies. For instance, it lets us see how America always has other countries' best interests at heart, even if the policy implementation is sometimes misguided, whereas non-allied countries are just aggressively seeking power. It's a good thing our media is dedicated to the truth, and…

You know that your comment only corroborates the article in that discrediting all mainstream narratives is one of the goals.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#65

Post by dmytrish »

gfosco wrote: post #63
dmytrish wrote: post #46

As a witness of protests at Maidan square in Kiev, I was staggered by the depiction of the events in Russian medias: it was a heavily engineered and coherently orchestrated image full of humongous distortions to the point of creating a parallel reality. Their usual tool is taking an insignificant trend/event that fits their needs and blowing it out of proportions ("nazi" at Maidan, "repressed Russian-speaking populat…

The same shit is happening here. Massive distortion of reality and epic-level propaganda on US media. We need to always be skeptical of the pushed narrative.

I can't judge that by myself, but my external impression that if there is such thing as Western propaganda, it must be incredibly subtle and seamless, omnipotent and omnipresent to be real. Russian propaganda is not a thing you are not aware of as a Russian, it's just that it gets you emotional and grows a self-protection from external believes.

Many Russian medias start to claim "look at the others, they are not better" when confronted with a clear evidence of their lie. Even more, it grows a kind of double-speak: I have an impression that the majority of Russians understood who the Crimean "polite green men" were, but they were still supporting the official narrative in public.

I strongly advise against believing in "all these media are sides of the same coin", it's a well-known instrument of propaganda.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#66

Post by hcarvalhoalves »

dmytrish wrote: post #46

As a witness of protests at Maidan square in Kiev, I was staggered by the depiction of the events in Russian medias: it was a heavily engineered and coherently orchestrated image full of humongous distortions to the point of creating a parallel reality. Their usual tool is taking an insignificant trend/event that fits their needs and blowing it out of proportions ("nazi" at Maidan, "repressed Russian-speaking populat…

Besides Russia, I see the same on Venezuelan and Brazilian media, at different levels of intensity.

What these countries have in common?

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#67

Post by dmytrish »

hcarvalhoalves wrote: post #66
dmytrish wrote: post #46

As a witness of protests at Maidan square in Kiev, I was staggered by the depiction of the events in Russian medias: it was a heavily engineered and coherently orchestrated image full of humongous distortions to the point of creating a parallel reality. Their usual tool is taking an insignificant trend/event that fits their needs and blowing it out of proportions ("nazi" at Maidan, "repressed Russian-speaking populat…

Besides Russia, I see the same on Venezuelan and Brazilian media, at different levels of intensity. What these countries have in common?

It's hard for me to guess, maybe centralization of media makes it so attractive for governments to distort information. When there are at least two sides loudly confronting each other, the general picture gets much better.

A curious example: Ukrainian media channels are mostly funded by local oligarchs, but each of them has different agenda and interests, so they often fight each other, and that produces an external assessment of "partly-free" for Ukrainian media space.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#69

Post by dleslie »

akjj wrote: post #62
dleslie wrote: post #16

The New York Times has a long history of cooperating with three-letter agencies as a state mouthpiece. The irony of their publishing this article is delicious.

Why is this ironic? I'm struggling to find a reasonable interpretation for this claim other than "The NY Times has been wrong about issues of spying and propaganda before, therefore it's not worth my time to consider the claims in this article, and I dismiss it completely." Which is a reasonable thing to believe. A little harsh in my opinion, but reasonable can disagree. However, it's definitely not ironic. Even if y…

I did not dismiss the notion that Russia produces propaganda; Russia produces propaganda.

Generally, I expect that those alleging wrong doing are not engaging in the same; and so it appears ironic when an exposed agent of state propaganda alleges that a state is engaging in propaganda. It's a, "well yes, and you would know" sort of humour.

Let those without sin cast the first stones, and all that.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#70

Post by whybroke »

tptacek wrote: post #47
whybroke wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well since the first part of the argument is "The USA is like Hitler so Russia is flawless", I'd give the post 0 out of 10 and conjecture that 4chan must be down right now

I didn't say I agreed with it, just that the first part of the comment appears to be from one commenter, and the second part from another.

I didn't mean to imply that you did, just wished to point out that the entire post was absurd not just the conspiracy theory part but the tu quoque part too.
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