Live data from Hacker News

WhatsApp – Opting out of new terms doesn’t stop Facebook taking information

independent.co.uk

11–20 of 102 posts

Re: WhatsApp – Opting out of new terms doesn’t stop Facebook taking information

#11
So where is the FCC and its "20 year monitoring of Facebook's privacy policies" now?

Or was that just lip service to appease the public that Facebook is doing nothing wrong, because after all, it's being watched by the FCC?

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2011/11/faceb...

By the way, even if what Facebook is doing now doesn't violate that settlement with the FCC, I'm 100% certain Whatsapp was already sharing phone contacts with Facebook many months before this policy change. So at least that should've violated the settlement. It's just that they didn't get caught doing it before any official noticed.

The reason I say I'm confident they were doing that is because I barely use Facebook at all on the PC, I never installed Facebook's app on my phone, and yet Facebook started suggesting me people I was talking to on Whatsapp to add as friends. And I've seen quite a few other people mention similar situations on the web as well.

Why is the FCC sleeping on the job?

Re: WhatsApp – Opting out of new terms doesn’t stop Facebook taking information

#13
post #7
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? All my friends, my boss, the shop I just bought a new suit at, my municipality, they're all on whatsapp nowadays. It's a pretty big deal to just cut it out of my life. It's a platform that's approaching something like 'have an email address' or 'have a phone' in practical terms. There are workarounds but they're not as painless as simply deciding to 'use an alternative chat alternative'. It's like saying you…

I don't use neither facebook nor whatsapp and I live perfectly fine. It's not like you stop breathing. In my experience telling people that you prefer a different medium from whatsapp is not a big deal.

I also have neither, but it's extremely hard.

Some people will understand why you don't have Facebook, but not having WhatsApp is downright mad. Specially if you work with technology.

The only people I know that don't have it are luddites or very old people, and even they are far and few between.

Re: WhatsApp – Opting out of new terms doesn’t stop Facebook taking information

#14

I don't get the problem. If you don't trust them why don't you just stop using them? It's not like it's a government spying program you're being forced into and it's not like there aren't a gazillions chat apps alternatives. Also the intersection of people who use whatsapp and have no Facebook already on their phone with access to contacts must be pretty small so not sure this change is as controversial as claimed in…

This video explains it better than I can: http://www.securitytube.net/video/1084 Changing Threats To Privacy From Tia To Google (Blackhat 2010) by Moxie Marlinspike

The relevant part:

"I think if you look at the way that people tend to organise in groups and communities, there are often informal communications networks that bind them together, that allow them to communicate, make plans, coordinate activities. If you introduce something like the GSM cellular network to this group, and if I start using it, I am subject to something that is very well known called the No Network Effect. If I am the only one with a cell phone it's really not worth very much. The value of the network is in the number of people that are connected to it and that if I'm the only one I can't really communicate with anyone.

However if I somehow manage to get everyone to start using my communications network it becomes very effective and very valuable. But there is an interesting side effect, which is that the old informal mechanisms people use to communicate and to collaborate disappear, that they are destroyed by the introduction of technology. The technology actually changes the social fabric of how people communicate and coordinate. Mobile phones, there are many obvious examples. People used to make plans, they would say: "I'll meet you on this street corner at this time on this day and, you know, we'll do something" and now people say "I'll call you when I'm getting off work" or "I'll text you" and if you don't have a mobile phone you can't really participate in this type of organisation and you begin to find yourself kind of alone. Because if I now make a choice not to be a part of this cellular network, there is sort of an interesting thing where once again I am subject to the no network effect. The network that used to exist, the informal communications channels, has been destroyed.

So yes, I made a choice to have a mobile phone, but what kind of choice did I make? I think this is sort of an interesting phenomenon. What happens is a choice is introduced; it starts as a very simple choice: the choice of whether or not to have a mobile phone, a simple piece of technology. But slowly things happen to expand the scope of that choice until eventually it's so big as to encompass not just whether you have a mobile phone or not but whether you want to be a part of society. In some ways the choice to have a mobile phone today has become not necessarily just whether you have a piece of consumer electronics in your pocket but whether or not you are even a part of society, and that's a much bigger choice. Maybe not one that we should have to make, or at least maybe one that isn't really a choice at all."

END QUOTE

There's some irony here now that Moxie has teamed up with Facebook to work on WhatsApp.

Re: WhatsApp – Opting out of new terms doesn’t stop Facebook taking information

#15
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't use neither facebook nor whatsapp and I live perfectly fine. It's not like you stop breathing. In my experience telling people that you prefer a different medium from whatsapp is not a big deal.

I also have neither, but it's extremely hard. Some people will understand why you don't have Facebook, but not having WhatsApp is downright mad. Specially if you work with technology. The only people I know that don't have it are luddites or very old people, and even they are far and few between.

> The only people I know that don't have it are luddites or very old people, and even they are far and few between.

I don't have it and no one I interact with at work had asked for my WhatsApp. I work in tech but NOT in the SV bubble. Everyone I know uses Google Hangouts.

Messenger apps have always been regional, back in high school everyone I knew used MSN Messenger while people I knew from my old hometown were all on AIM.

Re: WhatsApp – Opting out of new terms doesn’t stop Facebook taking information

#16
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on where you live. You'd be a monster here if you didn't use WhatsApp :D

So doesn't that make that position downright dangerous? As a 3rd party to this argument, now I agree with the other guy. edit: to clarify I mean I should join the opt-out side to help stop it from becoming socially unacceptable

The Facebook/WhatsApp hegemony really is dangerous in that aspect. It grew from 'just social media' into something that is starting to usurp communication that used to take place via open platforms. In the Netherlands one of the largest banks (ING) even stopped supporting communication with its customers via email, suggesting the use of Twitter or WhatsApp instead for digital communication.

It is perfectly possible not to use them (I don't), but it is not without downsides.

Re: WhatsApp – Opting out of new terms doesn’t stop Facebook taking information

#17
post #9

Why we don't sell ads (2012) https://blog.whatsapp.com/245/Why-we-dont-sell-ads ?

What did we really expect? That they were going to support a 1 billion user app as a public good? The writing was on the wall when they dropped the 79 pence per year fee

Re: WhatsApp – Opting out of new terms doesn’t stop Facebook taking information

#18
post #6

I don't get the problem. If you don't trust them why don't you just stop using them? It's not like it's a government spying program you're being forced into and it's not like there aren't a gazillions chat apps alternatives. Also the intersection of people who use whatsapp and have no Facebook already on their phone with access to contacts must be pretty small so not sure this change is as controversial as claimed in…

Really? All my friends, my boss, the shop I just bought a new suit at, my municipality, they're all on whatsapp nowadays. It's a pretty big deal to just cut it out of my life. It's a platform that's approaching something like 'have an email address' or 'have a phone' in practical terms. There are workarounds but they're not as painless as simply deciding to 'use an alternative chat alternative'. It's like saying you…

>It's a platform that's approaching something like 'have an email address' or 'have a phone' in practical terms.

Not even remotely. I realize that WhatsApp is a big thing, but I've never even used it or have anyone in my circle who uses it. And I work in the tech industry.

Do people really feel social pressure to use a specific app?

Re: WhatsApp – Opting out of new terms doesn’t stop Facebook taking information

#19
post #17
post #9

Why we don't sell ads (2012) https://blog.whatsapp.com/245/Why-we-dont-sell-ads ?

What did we really expect? That they were going to support a 1 billion user app as a public good? The writing was on the wall when they dropped the 79 pence per year fee

I think that it's a good reminder that all the sentiment in the world is meaningless in the face of changing ownership and/or business realities. See also Instapaper + Pinterest.

Edit - Also a reminder to founders: If you want your vision for the company to survive, don't sell it!

Re: WhatsApp – Opting out of new terms doesn’t stop Facebook taking information

#20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also have neither, but it's extremely hard. Some people will understand why you don't have Facebook, but not having WhatsApp is downright mad. Specially if you work with technology. The only people I know that don't have it are luddites or very old people, and even they are far and few between.

> The only people I know that don't have it are luddites or very old people, and even they are far and few between. I don't have it and no one I interact with at work had asked for my WhatsApp. I work in tech but NOT in the SV bubble. Everyone I know uses Google Hangouts. Messenger apps have always been regional, back in high school everyone I knew used MSN Messenger while people I knew from my old hometown were all…

Still, Whatsapp has extremely high penetration in some countries outside the US. E.g. in my country of origin (The Netherlands), 9.8 million people use Whatsapp, 7 million people daily (of 17 million inhabitants). I now live in Germany, where Whatsapp had 30 million active users in 2014 (population: 80 million). If people have some other messenger it's typically Facebook Messenger.

tl;dr: there are a lot of countries/language regions where Whatsapp is the absolutely dominant messenger.

Post reply on HN