Overselling A.D.H.D. • Hacker News Board

Re: Overselling A.D.H.D.

#231

Post by kawa » Thu, Aug 25, 2016, 8:08 AM UTC

sevenless wrote: post #166

ergothus wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no diagnosis of ADD/ADHD. I have recently, however, started to wonder. I'm an adult (39), and recently things that have just always been true for me are getting more rigid and interfering with my life. Things like: I need an exact amount of input: too little and I get bored/distracted, too much and I can't focus and get irritable. This has a huge impact on my ability to do work, to socialize with friends, or e…

Shorn of all pretense you're essentially wondering if you'd benefit from or enjoy taking drugs. This is quite possible. People take drugs for all kinds of reasons. What I object to is calling this a disease .

Whats a "disease" and whats not is not easy to define. If we could look at the living brain at a microscopic level, comparing individual dopamine receptors and the connectome of individual brains, it would be quite easy to give objective evidence for most mental diseases. But we can't. But we can see viruses and tumors and that leads to your idea that those are more "real" because it's more easy to see them. But is "visibility" really a valid criteria here?

For example look at a disease like fibromyalgia: For a very long time there was no objective evidence that this disease really existed, so people suffering from it where often seen as hypochondriacs. Today we know it's really a disease because modern medicine found ways to make it "visible" so it's accepted as a real disease now. But with your way of thinking you would've denied those people analgesics because a few years ago there was no objective way to tell if they really suffered the pain they reported.

OTOH depression is still an "invisible" disease: You can only look at the symptoms to diagnose it, there is no "objective" evidence for it. But still there are lots of people suffering and dying from it. And we know from lots of studies that it's possible to cure or at least manage this disease for a certain percentage of sufferers. So I would consider it unethical to let people suffer or even kill them self only because we can't see objective biological evidence that they have depression.

Now with ADHD it's not as clear as with depression because the symptoms aren't that severe. So you argue that it's just the society which wants "conforming" individuals and declares non-conforming ones as "ill". But if people are really disabled by something which prevents them doing certain things they want to do which the majority (> 90%) of people can do, while medication exists which let them do it, is it really ethical to not give them the medication? Those people are objectively suffering and there exists lots of evidence that their suffering can be reduced be giving them a certain medication. So it's unethically to let them suffer even if there exits a way to stop their suffering.

And yes, if there would be a medication which could lift the IQ of person with low IQ into the average range, I would also consider it unethically to not give this medication to people with low IQ. But such a medication don't exists today.

Re: Overselling A.D.H.D.

#232

Post by angry-hacker » Thu, Aug 25, 2016, 8:45 AM UTC

dustinls wrote: post #219

angry-hacker wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds more like detox. I'm regular drug addict and know the feeling.

In this case its called rebound effects. When you have a medical condition that you treat with medication, a shocking consequence of discontinuing treatment is a return of that medical conditions symptoms. On the bright side, people don't call you a slacker anymore. Now your just a drug addict.

You're correct.

I have had experienced something similar with Xanax. The symptoms returned but worse than ever and I was certain that taking loads of it is absolutely necessary. Once you are able to go off, the symptoms go back to normal. Anxiety doesn't appear, but Xanax only makes it worse. It is same story with stimulants.

Re: Overselling A.D.H.D.

#233

Post by basch » Thu, Aug 25, 2016, 12:50 PM UTC

MichaelGG wrote: post #194

basch wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

school is so boring we give children focus drugs and are surprised when they are able to focus? and we dont talk about fixing school, because the short term pragmatic decision is to adapt the brilliant kid to the shitty environment, instead of the inverse.

I don't think her school is too boring. It's her and her sister and a full time teacher just for them. They have near unlimited flexibility in scheduling and approaching things. She goes on about how fun it is; they both love it. It's just she can't seem to focus on any task without the meds. She really likes taking them, hence making me more conflicted.

that is because the task is boring, if it was engaging kids would focus on their own. its not more enthralling than the thing her attention diverts to. with screens, we have trained kids to always have ever changing dopamine bursts and excitement. school hasnt adapted to the chaoticness of our desires (and maybe ti shouldnt, maybe focus is a skill we should hone, instead of obtain through cheating.)

Re: Overselling A.D.H.D.

#234

Post by whamlastxmas » Thu, Aug 25, 2016, 2:33 PM UTC

barrkel wrote: post #186

whamlastxmas wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah a shill for big-amphetamine. That's like saying he's a shill for big-chicken. They're both common commodities that have a wide range of specific to generic versions. The idea that amphetamine producers gather to plan covert operations to pay people to spread propaganda on the internet is ridiculous.

I'd put the probability that the account is a shill at maybe 5%. But the account owner is definitely invested in the topic, and I'd like to know why. They're more interested in this topic than any other over nearly 2 years on this site.

Everyone has their personal interests. There are topics I will debate endlessly on the internet despite it being a tremendous waste of my time. It doesn't mean I'm a shill for Assange, it just means I think the way the public and media treat him is bullshit and the level of deliberate misinformation out there is frustrating.

The original commenter could possibly have a really good experience with adderall. Maybe he found the process to actually get the medication he needs for a profound increase in quality of life to be ridiculous. Doctors treat people like drug seekers. You can't even call around and say "Hello, I'm new to the area and trying to find a doctor that will help me with my AHDH" because they will 95% say "no" even if you're telling the truth. Your only hope is to establish a psychiatrist and psychologist for other reasons, then sort of side-step your way into getting a prescription.

Then after spending $30 copays every week for a year, you can repeat this whole process for trying to find a general practitioner who will prescribe you the same meds without weekly appointments. You will call around, they will all say no. You just have to pick one, go in for a physical, a couple other things, and eventually bring up that you'd like to get your script from them instead. They still only write you a month at time and you have to physically go in every month to get a new one. They probably require you do blood work and urine tests to make sure you're not using drugs recreationally, and to make sure you're actually taking the adderall you're prescribed rather than selling it.

Can you see the tremendous level of bullshit involved for a relatively harmless and inexpensive drug? All because of public perception. It's easy to see why someone who try to advocate for it.

Re: Overselling A.D.H.D.

#235

Post by andrei_says_ » Thu, Aug 25, 2016, 6:29 PM UTC

anexprogrammer wrote: post #58

As someone in my 5th decade, with lifelong ADHD (though given my age it did not exist in my youth, and was only diagnosed relatively recently), I'm wary of backing away from treatments until we actually do have real viable alternatives. It took far too long to get ADHD widely recognised, and even now it's often more likely to be received with humour than real recognition. Much more research, especially on other possi…

I am curious, are there activities that you're capable in without the need for medication?

It may or may not be work-related, like snowboarding or board games etc.