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Encryption under fire in Europe as France and Germany call for decrypt law

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Re: Encryption under fire in Europe as France and Germany call for decrypt law

#41
post #8

> The context here is that France and Germany have suffered a spate of terrorist attacks over the past year, including a co-ordinated attack in Paris in November 2015 that killed 130; a July 2016 attack in Nice where a truck driver ploughed into crowds celebrating Bastille Day; and a stabbing in a church in Northern France that killed an elderly priest. To put this in perspective, about 700 people would die from homi…

no significant mortality risk to Europeans. This is "Whataboutism". The rational behind being wary about terrorism is as follows. 1. Normal homicides are random individual actions, and they are under reasonable control by standard policing. In other words, if we continue policing as we do now, normal homicide rate will remain constant. 2. Terrorism is not random individual action, but rather organised violence by lar…

I think that calling this "whataboutism" is wrong. It is good to weigh the actual risk something presents and putting it into perspective.

The truth is that terrorism is a minor threat compared to others in our life yet a disproportionate amount of effort and fear stems from it. Your assertion that they would eventually take over is an overstatement. There have been countries under occupation with strong resistance movements that were orders of magnitude more active and disruptive and had far more popular support than the terrorist threat we are facing now, and those movements by themselves did not manage taking over, it seems unlikely terrorists would manage this now.

> (Compare for example with the reaction to the AIDS epidemics in the early 1980s. The lazy whatabout-ist could have said (and indeed did say): "Oh AIDS just affects a few gays and needle-sharing heroin addicts, whatabout the orders of magnitude more who die of the flu and cancer, no need to worry about AIDS".)

In a way, this example is also flawed. If, a comparatively similar amount of effort and research would have gone into developing cures and treatments for the other diseases, the benefits would have also been, probably, order of magnitudes greater. Would that not have been a logically superior choice?

On the other hand, I find very interesting you approaching this as a disease that has to be controlled and quarantined so it does not spread, it might have some merit. But we are not proposing ignoring the issue, but acting in a way proportional to its actual threat level, some way that the costs of acting are balanced with its actual benefits. I will give you that terroristic attacks are most costly not because of human lived but because of, well, spreading terror. I we could all see the threats as relatively minor to other threats, maybe their effects would be diminished. I think that they would loose their effect if they become common enough, because people get used to them and continue their lived, same way people continue their lives in war zones.Then, the precieved risk(or at least, the fear of this risk) would be smaller even if the risk itself would be higher.

Re: Encryption under fire in Europe as France and Germany call for decrypt law

#42
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly what would you accept as proof? A deduction in ZFC or Homotopy Type Theory? Or an empirical experiment, where we split the world into two parts, one were we police terrorism as the french are doing now, and one where terrorists are treated like random robberies and crimes of spurned lovers; then wait for 200 years and see which side does better?

Does the snark mean you don't have an actual argument supporting the 'axiom' (really just a premise) that "terrorists will take over the world"? You can't avoid the need to prove your premises by calling them 'axioms'.

I was not addressing the question of whether the axioms are true or not, although I have an opinion on this matter. I was addressing lazy "whataboutism".

You still have not given an workable account of what you would accept as "proof". I imagine that that's because you have not actually though about this issue.

The question of regime change has been thought about deeply for millenia, but there has never been a "proof". Instead, those who think about politics usually look at the history of regime change. This is not because they don't want to have higher standards of evidence, but because nobody knows how to do better.

Re: Encryption under fire in Europe as France and Germany call for decrypt law

#43
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the snark mean you don't have an actual argument supporting the 'axiom' (really just a premise) that "terrorists will take over the world"? You can't avoid the need to prove your premises by calling them 'axioms'.

I was not addressing the question of whether the axioms are true or not, although I have an opinion on this matter. I was addressing lazy "whataboutism". You still have not given an workable account of what you would accept as "proof". I imagine that that's because you have not actually though about this issue. The question of regime change has been thought about deeply for millenia, but there has never been a "proof…

Proving this is nearly impossible, that's why the discussion never ends.

The argument 'If we don't ban encryption, the terrorists will take over the world' is compelling, if you believe it. But it is simply a dire prediction of the kind that can be made (and often is) about anything.

Even regular murders. Not so long ago politicians were talking about crime waves and 'superpredators'.

Re: Encryption under fire in Europe as France and Germany call for decrypt law

#44
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. Accounting for all deaths together is a great way of losing focus on each problem. Drownings account for roughly as many deaths as police in the USA. Should we seek for different, specific solutions or treat all deaths as if they were the same, losing touch with the real topic? Terrorism is a deliberate attempt to destabilize the state and must be fought differently with respect to, say, flu.

We are proposing laws we would normally not consider. Destabilization successful.

You are implying that a new law to address a new phenomenon will necessarily destabilize the country.

Of course it's not so, some laws are required to face a new threat and stabilize the country.

Re: Encryption under fire in Europe as France and Germany call for decrypt law

#45
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. Accounting for all deaths together is a great way of losing focus on each problem. Drownings account for roughly as many deaths as police in the USA. Should we seek for different, specific solutions or treat all deaths as if they were the same, losing touch with the real topic? Terrorism is a deliberate attempt to destabilize the state and must be fought differently with respect to, say, flu.

Even if this is true, and terrorism threatens the existence of the state, states have no right to exist. New states often come into being, and states often stop existing (East Germany, USSR). This isn't inherently good or bad. There are ethical rationales for opposing terrorism, but defending the existence of particular national governments isn't one of them.

> states have no right to exist

Quite a big assumption you make.

If states have no right to exist, they obviously have no right of making new laws.

Here we are discussing about a law proposal, so apparently everyone believes in the right of a country to exist and to regulate citizen's life through laws.

I'm sorry.

Re: Encryption under fire in Europe as France and Germany call for decrypt law

#46
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if this is true, and terrorism threatens the existence of the state, states have no right to exist. New states often come into being, and states often stop existing (East Germany, USSR). This isn't inherently good or bad. There are ethical rationales for opposing terrorism, but defending the existence of particular national governments isn't one of them.

> states have no right to exist Quite a big assumption you make. If states have no right to exist, they obviously have no right of making new laws. Here we are discussing about a law proposal, so apparently everyone believes in the right of a country to exist and to regulate citizen's life through laws. I'm sorry.

> If states have no right to exist, the obviously have no right of making new laws.

That doesn't follow. States do make new laws, and people will go along with those laws, because the nature of a state is to compel people to follow its laws (by definition). It still doesn't mean that it's bad that any state should stop existing, or that we should oppose terrorism on the sole ground that it threatens states.

Put it another way: a referendum to split the state into two (like the Scottish independence referendum), also threatens the state. That would not be a reason to oppose the referendum.

Re: Encryption under fire in Europe as France and Germany call for decrypt law

#47
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If we continue policing as we do now, terrorism will increase, up to a point where the terrorists take over and are the new rulers. Are you seriously expecting that ISIS will take control of France?

Yes I do. Let's not forget that ISIS almost managed to take over Syria and Irak, what makes you think they would not take over France if the French let them? A hand full of socialist revolutionaries took over Russia, and ruled for nearly a century. Francisco Pizarro with took over the Inca empire with just 168 men, 1 cannon and 27 horses! The Inca empire was one of the largest seen in human history at the time. Actua…

You forget that in both instances of the 'handful of revolutionaries' you quote had full popular support on their side. The terrorists have neither popular support nor superior weaponry (the pizarro example). I also doubt that this is a goal of these groups, the goal is to spread fear so that popular opinion in France turns against the muslim minority. This in turn, gives these groups a pool of new recruits.

Re: Encryption under fire in Europe as France and Germany call for decrypt law

#48
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> states have no right to exist Quite a big assumption you make. If states have no right to exist, they obviously have no right of making new laws. Here we are discussing about a law proposal, so apparently everyone believes in the right of a country to exist and to regulate citizen's life through laws. I'm sorry.

> If states have no right to exist, the obviously have no right of making new laws. That doesn't follow. States do make new laws, and people will go along with those laws, because the nature of a state is to compel people to follow its laws (by definition). It still doesn't mean that it's bad that any state should stop existing, or that we should oppose terrorism on the sole ground that it threatens states. Put it an…

> States do make new laws

Of course they do.

You didn't read my reply thoroughly.

I just said that if you believe they have no right to exist, you must also believe that they cannot have a right to make laws.

> a referendum to split the state into two also threatens the state

Threatening the state by splitting it, and threatening the state with terrorism are two completely different things.

The former is somehow encouraged by international law, through the right of self-determination of nations. The latter, on the other hand, is frowned upon very badly, as it violates at least a couple of dozen of articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Re: Encryption under fire in Europe as France and Germany call for decrypt law

#49
post #47
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I do. Let's not forget that ISIS almost managed to take over Syria and Irak, what makes you think they would not take over France if the French let them? A hand full of socialist revolutionaries took over Russia, and ruled for nearly a century. Francisco Pizarro with took over the Inca empire with just 168 men, 1 cannon and 27 horses! The Inca empire was one of the largest seen in human history at the time. Actua…

You forget that in both instances of the 'handful of revolutionaries' you quote had full popular support on their side. The terrorists have neither popular support nor superior weaponry (the pizarro example). I also doubt that this is a goal of these groups, the goal is to spread fear so that popular opinion in France turns against the muslim minority. This in turn, gives these groups a pool of new recruits.

I think Pizarro had some religious support too. The Incans had a prophecy about 'white people' coming from the gods, and he just happened to turn up at the right time...

Re: Encryption under fire in Europe as France and Germany call for decrypt law

#50
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If states have no right to exist, the obviously have no right of making new laws. That doesn't follow. States do make new laws, and people will go along with those laws, because the nature of a state is to compel people to follow its laws (by definition). It still doesn't mean that it's bad that any state should stop existing, or that we should oppose terrorism on the sole ground that it threatens states. Put it an…

> States do make new laws Of course they do. You didn't read my reply thoroughly. I just said that if you believe they have no right to exist, you must also believe that they cannot have a right to make laws. > a referendum to split the state into two also threatens the state Threatening the state by splitting it, and threatening the state with terrorism are two completely different things. The former is somehow enco…

States don't make laws because they have a right to; they do it because they can. There's no supra-national law that specifically gives states a right to make laws, it's just part of national sovereignty.

The mafia can also force people to go along with its protection racket, but that doesn't mean the mafia has a right to do it. Just that we live in a world where it's possible.

> Threatening the state by splitting it, and threatening the state with terrorism are two completely different things.

Not in terms of the outcomes, which might be identical. In the consequentialist argument you're making, you cannot oppose terrorism on the grounds that it destroys the state if you support a referendum that can destroy the state.

> it violates at least a couple of dozen of articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

This has nothing to say about national sovereignty. Actually, if you believe in the claims made by the UDHR, that contradicts the notion that nations should act as they please and make whatever laws they decide on.

Anyway, I don't see why the UDHR should have any moral force. It wasn't decided on by a democratic vote, it was decided on by the victors after WW2, some of which weren't even democracies. There is no mechanism for amending the UDHR, and nobody has ever had a say in whether they wanted it to apply to them. "Human rights" don't exist.

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