Encryption under fire in Europe as France and Germany call for decrypt law • Hacker News Board

Re: Encryption under fire in Europe as France and Germany call for decrypt law

#31

Post by zakk » Thu, Aug 25, 2016, 9:30 AM UTC

sevenless wrote: post #3

> The context here is that France and Germany have suffered a spate of terrorist attacks over the past year, including a co-ordinated attack in Paris in November 2015 that killed 130; a July 2016 attack in Nice where a truck driver ploughed into crowds celebrating Bastille Day; and a stabbing in a church in Northern France that killed an elderly priest. To put this in perspective, about 700 people would die from homi…

Nonsense.

Accounting for all deaths together is a great way of losing focus on each problem.

Drownings account for roughly as many deaths as police in the USA. Should we seek for different, specific solutions or treat all deaths as if they were the same, losing touch with the real topic?

Terrorism is a deliberate attempt to destabilize the state and must be fought differently with respect to, say, flu.

Re: Encryption under fire in Europe as France and Germany call for decrypt law

#32

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 25, 2016, 9:30 AM UTC

sevenless wrote: post #3

> The context here is that France and Germany have suffered a spate of terrorist attacks over the past year, including a co-ordinated attack in Paris in November 2015 that killed 130; a July 2016 attack in Nice where a truck driver ploughed into crowds celebrating Bastille Day; and a stabbing in a church in Northern France that killed an elderly priest. To put this in perspective, about 700 people would die from homi…

[deleted]

Re: Encryption under fire in Europe as France and Germany call for decrypt law

#33

Post by sevenless » Thu, Aug 25, 2016, 9:31 AM UTC

fdgdasfadsf wrote: post #30

mafribe wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no significant mortality risk to Europeans. This is "Whataboutism". The rational behind being wary about terrorism is as follows. 1. Normal homicides are random individual actions, and they are under reasonable control by standard policing. In other words, if we continue policing as we do now, normal homicide rate will remain constant. 2. Terrorism is not random individual action, but rather organised violence by lar…

> If we continue policing as we do now, terrorism will increase, up to a point where the terrorists take over and are the new rulers. Are you seriously expecting that ISIS will take control of France?

I'm sure Donald Trump said that the other day...

Re: Encryption under fire in Europe as France and Germany call for decrypt law

#34

Post by Qantourisc » Thu, Aug 25, 2016, 9:32 AM UTC

zakk wrote: post #31

sevenless wrote: post #3

> The context here is that France and Germany have suffered a spate of terrorist attacks over the past year, including a co-ordinated attack in Paris in November 2015 that killed 130; a July 2016 attack in Nice where a truck driver ploughed into crowds celebrating Bastille Day; and a stabbing in a church in Northern France that killed an elderly priest. To put this in perspective, about 700 people would die from homi…

Nonsense. Accounting for all deaths together is a great way of losing focus on each problem. Drownings account for roughly as many deaths as police in the USA. Should we seek for different, specific solutions or treat all deaths as if they were the same, losing touch with the real topic? Terrorism is a deliberate attempt to destabilize the state and must be fought differently with respect to, say, flu.

We are proposing laws we would normally not consider. Destabilization successful.

Re: Encryption under fire in Europe as France and Germany call for decrypt law

#35

Post by mafribe » Thu, Aug 25, 2016, 9:33 AM UTC

joering2 wrote: post #20

mafribe wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no significant mortality risk to Europeans. This is "Whataboutism". The rational behind being wary about terrorism is as follows. 1. Normal homicides are random individual actions, and they are under reasonable control by standard policing. In other words, if we continue policing as we do now, normal homicide rate will remain constant. 2. Terrorism is not random individual action, but rather organised violence by lar…

> If we continue policing as we do now, terrorism will increase, up to a point where the terrorists take over and are the new rulers. I hate to be this guy, but with enough knowledge about our ancestors going far into the past, how do we know similar acts did not take place?? Look at USA alone - they were asian tribes that got wiped by indians with arrows. Indians got wiped by whites with guns.. whoever comes for us…

   how do we know similar acts 
   did not take place??

We are pretty sure that many pre-democratic changes of political power did come about in this way. Revolutions and other political power-struggles have been studied very carefully e.g. [1], the Marxist tradition is pretty full of such studies, e.g. [2, 3].

   but that's still the case today, no?

Yes, precisely because of the intense counter-measures taken to prevent AIDS from spreading further. Need-sharing has mostly disappeared, at least in western Europe, because taking Heroin has been effectively decriminalised. Moreover, free Methadon substitution for addicts, and the provision of free needles (and space to shoot up) are all reactions to the AIDS epidemic.

So the fact that "that's still the case today" is a great success of not going whatabout-flu-and-traffic-deaths when AIDS arrived.

[1] E. N. Luttwak, Coup d'Etat: A Practical Handbook.

[2] Võ Nguyên Giáp: People's war, people's army.

[3] S. Alinsky, Rules for Radicals.

Re: Encryption under fire in Europe as France and Germany call for decrypt law

#36

Post by Qantourisc » Thu, Aug 25, 2016, 9:36 AM UTC

sdoering wrote: post #25

Qantourisc wrote: post #14

Anyone who knows if they are 2 "rogue" ministers, or if they have some backing ?

At least in Germany, coming from the leading party[1] and pushing the official party line, the minister is anything but rogue. The leading party (CDU) even has a sister party (CSU in Bavaria) that is even more of a law and order type. They have way more extreme ideas on how a state should be able to control it's citizens. But even the moderate left SPD (in coalition with CDU as ruling parties in Germany) have their f…

So ... enough reason to start worrying and set-up counter campaigns ?

Re: Encryption under fire in Europe as France and Germany call for decrypt law

#37

Post by sevenless » Thu, Aug 25, 2016, 9:37 AM UTC

zakk wrote: post #31

sevenless wrote: post #3

> The context here is that France and Germany have suffered a spate of terrorist attacks over the past year, including a co-ordinated attack in Paris in November 2015 that killed 130; a July 2016 attack in Nice where a truck driver ploughed into crowds celebrating Bastille Day; and a stabbing in a church in Northern France that killed an elderly priest. To put this in perspective, about 700 people would die from homi…

Nonsense. Accounting for all deaths together is a great way of losing focus on each problem. Drownings account for roughly as many deaths as police in the USA. Should we seek for different, specific solutions or treat all deaths as if they were the same, losing touch with the real topic? Terrorism is a deliberate attempt to destabilize the state and must be fought differently with respect to, say, flu.

Even if this is true, and terrorism threatens the existence of the state, states have no right to exist. New states often come into being, and states often stop existing (East Germany, USSR). This isn't inherently good or bad. There are ethical rationales for opposing terrorism, but defending the existence of particular national governments isn't one of them.

Re: Encryption under fire in Europe as France and Germany call for decrypt law

#38

Post by mafribe » Thu, Aug 25, 2016, 9:38 AM UTC

fdgdasfadsf wrote: post #30

mafribe wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no significant mortality risk to Europeans. This is "Whataboutism". The rational behind being wary about terrorism is as follows. 1. Normal homicides are random individual actions, and they are under reasonable control by standard policing. In other words, if we continue policing as we do now, normal homicide rate will remain constant. 2. Terrorism is not random individual action, but rather organised violence by lar…

> If we continue policing as we do now, terrorism will increase, up to a point where the terrorists take over and are the new rulers. Are you seriously expecting that ISIS will take control of France?

Yes I do. Let's not forget that ISIS almost managed to take over Syria and Irak, what makes you think they would not take over France if the French let them?

A hand full of socialist revolutionaries took over Russia, and ruled for nearly a century.

Francisco Pizarro with took over the Inca empire with just 168 men, 1 cannon and 27 horses! The Inca empire was one of the largest seen in human history at the time.

Actually a handful of revolutionaries took over France in 1789.

Re: Encryption under fire in Europe as France and Germany call for decrypt law

#39

Post by Twisell » Thu, Aug 25, 2016, 9:38 AM UTC

joering2 wrote: post #20

mafribe wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no significant mortality risk to Europeans. This is "Whataboutism". The rational behind being wary about terrorism is as follows. 1. Normal homicides are random individual actions, and they are under reasonable control by standard policing. In other words, if we continue policing as we do now, normal homicide rate will remain constant. 2. Terrorism is not random individual action, but rather organised violence by lar…

> If we continue policing as we do now, terrorism will increase, up to a point where the terrorists take over and are the new rulers. I hate to be this guy, but with enough knowledge about our ancestors going far into the past, how do we know similar acts did not take place?? Look at USA alone - they were asian tribes that got wiped by indians with arrows. Indians got wiped by whites with guns.. whoever comes for us…

Please don't start on AIDS, you can find studies that say one thing and the other about which population is more exposed to risk. It's really far from trivial and they already have been several comparatives critical studies about theses studies.

Only 2 fact are undeniable: 1.AIDS can biologically affect anyone even if odds are low 2.If you use condoms (before you and you partner get tested), you'll never have to worry about it.

Otherwise is just betting with odds and trusting strangers, do as you wish but don't complain later on, nor shall you encourage others to be careless.

Re: Encryption under fire in Europe as France and Germany call for decrypt law

#40

Post by MrLeftHand » Thu, Aug 25, 2016, 9:40 AM UTC

It is easier to find something to blame then actually taking steps to avoid these attacks.

As far as I remember the Police already had the people behind the attacks on their radar, but they didn't do anything.

Being able to decrypt the messages wont help if they do it after the attacks happened. Like the FBI vs Apple? They knew the guy, they were following him. And did they do anything? Nope.

And what does it matter, if they go through with this? Criminals, terrorists will create their own encrypted channels.

It's a never ending battle and the only ones loosing will be the rights of the civilians.

And even if it will help to fight terrorism and save everyone without firing a gun, what's the promise that these tools, these backdoors wont fall into wrong hands? What's the promise when a dictatorship rises in one of these countries, they wont be able to use it for bad things?

Will they close these doors after they won the war on terrorism?