Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

well.blogs.nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

191–200 of 367 posts

Re: EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

#191

Post by Ironchefpython »

WalterBright wrote: post #187
Ironchefpython wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only sectors of the economy where significant, lasting shortages occur are the ones most heavily regulated. So you're saying that Petroleum Exporting Countries would never say... create an Organization intended to increase the price of oil? Or the DeBeers wouldn't collude with diamond producers to limit the availability of diamonds to increase the price? Or that manufacturers and distributors of light bulbs, ly…

In the software business, with pretty much zero regulations, competition has run the price literally to $0 for broad swaths of products.

> In the software business, with pretty much zero regulations, competition has run the price literally to $0 for broad swaths of products.

That's like saying that price competition is alive and well because banks will give you a free toaster when they charge fees to loan your money back to you.

But to address the specifics of the software industry, software is a complementary good.

This has been the driving force in the price of software for decades: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/StrategyLetterV.html

And it's true today. The biggest contributor to Linux is... Intel. Because it sells hardware. Google gives you a free browser so it can sell ad space.

Re: EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

#192

Post by rdtsc »

Tiksi wrote: post #169
rdtsc wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it protecting a monopoly? Why doesn't it say "this EpiPen can't cost more than $30"?

Because then no one will manufacture it. You can't just will things into existence with unrealistic feel good rhetoric.

If the cost is $5 why wouldn't someone manufacture it then?

> You can't just will things into existence with unrealistic feel good rhetoric.

Why not? We've willed wars and consequent huge handouts to the military industrial complex. I am sure if we tried a bit we can will into existance some $30 EpiPens.

Re: EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

#193

Post by snowwrestler »

JunkDNA wrote: post #54
serge2k wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Last year, the drug maker Sanofi recalled a competing product, Auvi-Q, because it may not have been delivering the correct amount of epinephrine, leaving the EpiPen as the primary emergency treatment for severe allergic reactions.

To all the folks in this thread suggesting 3D printing and all sorts of other ideas, keep in mind that Sanofi is not some fly-by-night or scrappy startup. They are a major pharmaceutical company with decades of experience manufacturing pharmaceuticals and the quality control that is required and even they couldn't get it right. They actually had a very innovative product. It was much smaller than the EpiPen and used…

I have to wonder how well expertise in pharmaceutical manufacturing really translates into expertise in manufacturing an auto-injector. The hard part of the EpiPen is not the drug, it's the mechanics.

Re: EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

#194

Post by redpola »

Cyph0n wrote: post #28
gmisra wrote: post #18

One of the early on-line responses was "maybe we can figure out how to 3D print these cases". It turns out that an Epi-pen is just a plastic safety housing around a normal syringe. Some discussions: https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/4y5481/cost_of_epipen... https://www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting/comments/4y7f26/epipen_f...

That second discussion got heated quite fast. I agree with the downvoters though. 3D printing a medical device is not something to take lightly. Edit: Here's why I agree. You download this design from the internet, and 3D print the parts. You then assemble it. Awesome! Some time later, you get an allergic reaction. You use the pen, but it fails to work correctly. Who's responsible? The designer? You (if you're alive)…

What doesn't seem to be represented in the discussion is that if you source and build your own epi pen, you might not have that initial discussion with your doctor and you certainly don't get any medical guidance leaflet with it.

Using an epi pen is a dangerous business and can cause considerable complications. It is absolutely not to be taken lightly and is literally for life-or-death situations. I fear that those making their own (or heaven forbid somebody else's) pen will not know this.

Source: my doctor when I bought my first epi pen (beekeeper).

Re: EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

#195

Post by redpola »

hackuser wrote: post #122
curiousgeorgio wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True - the government's automobile safety standards are far from trivial, but there's no denying that the difference in safety between the cheapest smart car on the road and the safest car on the road is huge . In a head-on collision between the two, there's absolutely no contest. Asking why the government should allow an EpiPen competitor with a 0.1% higher failure rate is akin to asking why the government should al…

> there's no denying that the difference in safety between the cheapest smart car on the road and the safest car on the road is huge. In a head-on collision between the two, there's absolutely no contest. I don't think that's true. Certainly expensive cars have new safety features, but ... I read a study of empirical data on what, in practice, made cars more survivable in accidents. It was awhile ago but here is my v…

I once read someone stating that "The safest car on the road is the one with a ten-inch razor-sharp metal spike fixed to the centre of the steering wheel.".

Re: EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

#196

Post by toomuchtodo »

refurb wrote: post #149
toomuchtodo wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you just prefer the gov't to step in and set the price? What happens if companies decide it's not worth the effort? Have the gov't force them to produce the product? Cut out the private market and have the government manufacture it directly.

Can you give me some examples where the gov't has come in as a manufacturer and it's actually gone well?

I don't know of any case in which the US government has attempted to fulfill the role of manufacturer; that does not mean we should not try.

Re: EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

#197

Post by WalterBright »

Ironchefpython wrote: post #188
WalterBright wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how exactly the 'free-market' for medical supplies would work without regulation, just look at the 1800s. Do you have a source for this? Medical costs started angling up steeply in the 1960s with the advent of heavy regulation. > dumping were still more profitable than competing on price. Isn't dumping competing on price?

> Medical costs started angling up steeply in the 1960s with the advent of heavy regulation Broadly, to a first approximation: Medical costs, real-estate, and education have increased in price to capture the consumer surplus created by the decline in food. clothing, and fuel costs. > Isn't dumping competing on price? Nope, dumping is used to drive new entrants out of a market. It also acts as a signal to prevent new…

> have increased in price to capture the consumer surplus

It is quite a remarkable coincidence that medical costs angled steeply upward immediately after heavy regulation and government involvement in it began.

> I can maintain a monopoly

It'll be pretty hard to swallow $1 million/year in losses to do so. You'd have to maintain those losses to beat back even a small competitor, who would have proportionally smaller losses. A small competitor would have the capability to ruin your business with a small investment on their part. I bet they could finance it by shorting your stock.

Re: EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

#198

Post by WalterBright »

Ironchefpython wrote: post #191
WalterBright wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the software business, with pretty much zero regulations, competition has run the price literally to $0 for broad swaths of products.

> In the software business, with pretty much zero regulations, competition has run the price literally to $0 for broad swaths of products. That's like saying that price competition is alive and well because banks will give you a free toaster when they charge fees to loan your money back to you. But to address the specifics of the software industry, software is a complementary good. This has been the driving force in…

I know many software companies with essentially a single product, which they give away. They make money selling service contracts, which enough customers buy to make it worthwhile.

The price is still $0 and there are still no regulations on it.

Most (all?) commercial products have complementary products. This is hardly unique to software. I seriously doubt the theory that medical products have no complementary sales.

Re: EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

#199

Post by Ironchefpython »

WalterBright wrote: post #197
Ironchefpython wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Medical costs started angling up steeply in the 1960s with the advent of heavy regulation Broadly, to a first approximation: Medical costs, real-estate, and education have increased in price to capture the consumer surplus created by the decline in food. clothing, and fuel costs. > Isn't dumping competing on price? Nope, dumping is used to drive new entrants out of a market. It also acts as a signal to prevent new…

> have increased in price to capture the consumer surplus It is quite a remarkable coincidence that medical costs angled steeply upward immediately after heavy regulation and government involvement in it began. > I can maintain a monopoly It'll be pretty hard to swallow $1 million/year in losses to do so. You'd have to maintain those losses to beat back even a small competitor, who would have proportionally smaller l…

> It is quite a remarkable coincidence that medical costs angled steeply upward immediately after heavy regulation and government involvement in it began.

Regulation didn't give people more money to spend on medicine. Offshoring jobs to China drive down prices of consumer goods to make more money available as a consumer surplus that could be captured by healthcare.

If the price of food increased, the price of housing, education, and medical care would decrease. Because the demand curve would change.

> A small competitor would have the capability to ruin your business with a small investment on their part. I bet they could finance it by shorting your stock.

That's a nice hypothetical that completely ignores all of financial theory AND history. If you ever start a company, let me know so I can short YOUR stock.

Re: EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

#200

Post by Ironchefpython »

> selling service contracts, [...] The price is still $0 and there are still no regulations on it.

I assume at this point that you're being paid to shill some political viewpoint on the internet, because you just explained that the price of software isn't actually zero, because it's unusable (to the customers that buy a service contract) without a service contract, and creating a company that employs the developers that wrote the software to support that software has a high barrier to entry. (because those developers are already employed)

To pick at company at random, HortonWorks. I pick on them because I recently saw an invoice. $20,000 for 16 hours of training. So by your argument, there must be some kind of regulation there, right?

Post reply on HN