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EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

well.blogs.nytimes.com

181–190 of 367 posts

Re: EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scarcity demands innovation. I don't think its being taken lightly; more like, "a private company is gouging medical users and the government won't step in". Not left with many options when your life depends on it. EDIT: Alternatively, a "better" temporary solution would be to arrange for the import of these from Canada, where the price is fixed by the government.

Not so much fixed as "Canada doesn't insist that everyone make separate deals so everyone can get fucked harder". It turns out when you have millions of people dealing together as a block, they have much more bargaining power.

That's not why Canada gets better prices. United Healthcare has 42M members which is bigger than the entire population of Canada.

Re: EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The price hikes would immediately attract lower-cost competitors if this were truly a free market. Any participants in a free market for a product with inelastic demand (e.g. something you need to stay alive) and non-trivial entry costs immediately implements price fixing in the absence of regulation. When life-saving devices that require a significant supply chain to manufacture capture the bulk of consumer surplu…

The non-trivial entry costs are there because of regulations and the legal environment regarding liability. You can view the high price as the free-market finding the intersection of supply and demand given the regulatory and legal constraints but that seems like a less than useful way of understanding 'free-market'.

> You can view the high price as the free-market finding the intersection of supply and demand given the regulatory and legal constraints but that seems like a less than useful way of understanding 'free-market'.

Stop using regulation as a stalking horse for your argument. Everything you need to know about the price of epi pens you can derive from inelastic demand (people don't want to die), and barriers to entry (copyrighted brand, network of doctors writing prescriptions, and yes, FDA approval so these things don't kill people).

The price is high because people will pay almost anything to not die. This drives the price point up to capture consumer surplus. It's easy to understand.

The Free Market isn't a magic bullet that will drive down these prices. For one simple reason. Rational actors don't compete on price. I'm going to repeat this, because so many people don't get it.

Rational actors don't compete on price. Rational actors will spend up to their expected monopoly profits to create a Nash Equilibrium where new entrants into a market will be unprofitable. The simplest way to do this is through dumping. (see "competition" in the generic drug market for example) Why doesn't this happen in every market? Regulation.

Maybe you don't like that in unregulated markets, people starve, are poisoned, are denied treatment, and worked like slaves. Because that's how you maximize profit, by minimizing your own costs by maximizing externalized costs. So you'll think anything to avoid that realization. Like blame 'regulation' for what's obviously rationally maximizing profits.

And if you want to know how exactly the 'free-market' for medical supplies would work without regulation, just look at the 1800s. Demand was still inelastic, so prices were high, quality was low (for obvious reasons), and competition was still stupid, because price fixing and dumping were still more profitable than competing on price.

Re: EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The non-trivial entry costs are there because of regulations and the legal environment regarding liability. You can view the high price as the free-market finding the intersection of supply and demand given the regulatory and legal constraints but that seems like a less than useful way of understanding 'free-market'.

> You can view the high price as the free-market finding the intersection of supply and demand given the regulatory and legal constraints but that seems like a less than useful way of understanding 'free-market'. Stop using regulation as a stalking horse for your argument. Everything you need to know about the price of epi pens you can derive from inelastic demand (people don't want to die), and barriers to entry (co…

> how exactly the 'free-market' for medical supplies would work without regulation, just look at the 1800s.

Do you have a source for this? Medical costs started angling up steeply in the 1960s with the advent of heavy regulation.

> dumping were still more profitable than competing on price.

Isn't dumping competing on price?

Re: EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

#185
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't blame the free market for these high prices. This is a highly regulated medical device market with patent protections and insurance market complications. The price hikes would immediately attract lower-cost competitors if this were truly a free market.

> The price hikes would immediately attract lower-cost competitors if this were truly a free market. Any participants in a free market for a product with inelastic demand (e.g. something you need to stay alive) and non-trivial entry costs immediately implements price fixing in the absence of regulation. When life-saving devices that require a significant supply chain to manufacture capture the bulk of consumer surplu…

Food is necessary for life, but food (in the US) is cheap, and food prices are not regulated.

Re: EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scarcity demands innovation. I don't think its being taken lightly; more like, "a private company is gouging medical users and the government won't step in". Not left with many options when your life depends on it. EDIT: Alternatively, a "better" temporary solution would be to arrange for the import of these from Canada, where the price is fixed by the government.

Surely design files can be signed...

Sure... but then there is the problem of the end user.

Is there 3D printer correctly calibrated? will miscalibration effect its end use? how can you test to make sure the printed design is working as intended?

Can the printed plastic withstand direct sunlight for days on end? Some printed plastics become brittle over time in sunlight (PLA for instance).

Re: EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

#187
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can think of many products which are life-saving which are readily available from countless producers for relatively cheap. The difference here is just as gwright has pointed out and you have a corpus of regulation which makes this particular product more expensive and/or chokes out competition. The only sectors of the economy where significant, lasting shortages occur are the ones most heavily regulated.

> The only sectors of the economy where significant, lasting shortages occur are the ones most heavily regulated. So you're saying that Petroleum Exporting Countries would never say... create an Organization intended to increase the price of oil? Or the DeBeers wouldn't collude with diamond producers to limit the availability of diamonds to increase the price? Or that manufacturers and distributors of light bulbs, ly…

In the software business, with pretty much zero regulations, competition has run the price literally to $0 for broad swaths of products.

Re: EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can view the high price as the free-market finding the intersection of supply and demand given the regulatory and legal constraints but that seems like a less than useful way of understanding 'free-market'. Stop using regulation as a stalking horse for your argument. Everything you need to know about the price of epi pens you can derive from inelastic demand (people don't want to die), and barriers to entry (co…

> how exactly the 'free-market' for medical supplies would work without regulation, just look at the 1800s. Do you have a source for this? Medical costs started angling up steeply in the 1960s with the advent of heavy regulation. > dumping were still more profitable than competing on price. Isn't dumping competing on price?

> Medical costs started angling up steeply in the 1960s with the advent of heavy regulation

Broadly, to a first approximation: Medical costs, real-estate, and education have increased in price to capture the consumer surplus created by the decline in food. clothing, and fuel costs.

> Isn't dumping competing on price?

Nope, dumping is used to drive new entrants out of a market. It also acts as a signal to prevent new market entrants.

If I sell 2 million widgets per year at a price of $10 over a cost of $1, after $4 million in capital costs, I can maintain a monopoly if I'm willing to drop my sale price to 50 cents every time someone enters my market, and I raise the price when they exit it.

This creates a Nash Equilibrium were no rational actor will spend $4 million to build a factory to compete with me.

Re: EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

#189
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, The FDA, because they require drug and device makers to demonstrate efficacy and safety by going through a rigorous clinical trial process, are evil? Really? I also find your comment pretty uninformed considering that the FDA just paved the way for generic drug makers to basically "knock-off" super expensive biologic drugs like Humira and Enbrel which were previously covered by similar patents. The FDA has it's p…

> So, The FDA, because they require drug and device makers to demonstrate efficacy and safety by going through a rigorous clinical trial process, are evil? Really? Yes, if the process is so rigorous and expensive that it drives the cost of drugs beyond the reach of people who need them, and it hampers the effective functioning of the free market. And I think it's widely accepted that's far more expensive to bring a d…

> In the case of Epipens, there's little risk, because epinephrine is an old, widely-used drug.

Well one risk is that you'll jam the thing into your thigh and get no epinephrine, because the injection mechanism failed. If this happened to your son, and he died, would you take that outcome serenely? This is what the FDA is trying to prevent.

> There is some risk that it will be mis-administered by a less-than-perfect device, but the fact is that a $10 bottle of epinephrine and a $1 syringe can save a life.

Then buy the bottle and syringe. The FDA is not, to my knowledge, preventing people from doing so. It's not as easy or reliable as an auto-injector, but it's also a lot cheaper, so it seems the system is already providing an alternative. There is also at least one other auto-injector on the market besides EpiPen. Again--not as easy to use, but cheaper.

Re: EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

#190
post #80
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so how is this insurance company getting away with what they're doing? you'd think someone else would produce it, sell it for <$100, and people would just buy them out of pocket. what stops that?

As others have said it's the drug company itself, not an insurance company. The patent they had on the injector has expired so others have tried and failed to bring alternatives to market. Unlike drugs, each medical device has to be vetted by the FDA. Generic drugs can get quicker to market just by showing that they're equivalent to the already approved drug. Devices can't do that. One of the alternatives was potenti…

> Unlike drugs, each medical device has to be vetted by the FDA. Generic drugs can get quicker to market just by showing that they're equivalent to the already approved drug. Devices can't do that.

That is incorrect -- devices can do that. Devices shown to be equivalent to an existing device can be put on the market with minimal regulatory overhead. The form to submit to the FDA for an equivalent device is a 510k Premarket Notification. Details are here:

http://www.fda.gov/MedicalDevices/DeviceRegulationandGuidanc...

This is what an acceptance letter from the FDA looks like for a substantially equivalent device:

http://www.texasbiogene.com/upload/content/file/TBGFDAapprov...

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