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The Hacker's Manifesto (1986)

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Re: The Hacker's Manifesto (1986)

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Computing in general started with such an idealistic, academic mindset. It's important to remember that the "hacker mindset" was really a call to return to that original approach where people would literally hack together on a computer, explore its limits and do it simply for the thrill. By the 80s, there was a business/professionalism that was eating away at that early approach and the "manifesto" is almost a straig…

I see where you're coming from, but this is an oversimplification. A lot of the early work on and thinking about computers was about the possibility of top-down social control. This features explicitly in Weiner's Cybernetics and at least implicitly in Von Neumann and Morgenstern's Theory of Games and Economic Behavior. (The Soviets latched onto the same idea and tried to build a central-planning computer network.) T…

> The "hacking" ethic was really part of the counterculture,

Right. And that's often missed. The hacker ethic and the FSF project are fundamentally countercultural to the Big Iron mentality of the 60s-80s. In the 90s it started getting sanitized by the Open Source folks, and the collision of Big Money and Software in the 00s subverted and subsumed the whole business.

But there are still many people who hack for the sake of the hack. They are often looked down on... it's still countercultural to the modern software/VC world. :-)

Re: The Hacker's Manifesto (1986)

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, I think you're right. But the thing is "without religious bias." We can say ESR isn't a hacker because his code's not good enough, and having stated your case, I'd agree, but saying he's not a hacker because he doesn't agree with us ideologically is undermining our own ideology.

Except that he's made a career of trying to pose as a hacker, define what a hacker is, tell people how to become a hacker, viciously attack the person, the philosophy and the life's work of one of the world's leading and most respected, influential and successful (if not quirky) hackers, and even hijack and distort the definition of the very words in the hacker's dictionary to reflect his own extremist political ideo…

Well, first off, the hacker as defined by the hacker's manifesto is very different from the definition ESR tried to warp. Also, yeah, ESR is a jerk. I don't argue that. He's an awful person. However, both definitions of hacker involve only judgement by output, not judgement of race or ideology.

And if we called people out for being horrible, RMS would be right out. I respect the man's work work and ideology, but I respect it slightly less when he starts licking his own toes while publically calling John Ousterhout a cancer.

Re: The Hacker's Manifesto (1986)

#73
post #17

To me, this manifesto has little more than historical value. It's more an expression of generic adolescent angst rather than of hacker culture. It's a poor "manifesto" too. What exactly are the aims of The Hacker? "Exploring", "Outsmarting you", and "judging people by what they say and think, not what they look like". Platitudes, really, if you set aside the emotional outbursts surrounding them. The Jargon File offer…

> We exist without skin color, without nationality, without religious bias > judging people by what they say and think, not what they look like. Hm. I may make these parts CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md in my next Github project.

I know at least one project already has - the surf browser's code of conduct[0] is more or less the full text of the manifesto.

http://git.suckless.org/surf/tree/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md

Re: The Hacker's Manifesto (1986)

#74
post #70
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> adopt the idiotic "-p convention" which doesn't even really exist in Lisp any more. Do you have a better way of signaling to the reader that a function is a predicate? I don't write a ton of Common Lisp, but I do still see quite of a bit of foop when I read Common Lisp. Possible that most of the code I'm reading was written when this was still a thing though... I think the only reason this doesn't exist in Clojure…

You may be right, maybe I've just only looked at Scheme lately and thought "?" had migrated to Common Lisp. https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node188.html seems to indicate that you could use ? in a common lisp function name, though.

You could, but I've never seen it. Convention seems to be to suffix 'p' if the predicate name is a single word, and '-p' otherwise.

Re: The Hacker's Manifesto (1986)

#75
post #43

To me, this manifesto has little more than historical value. It's more an expression of generic adolescent angst rather than of hacker culture. It's a poor "manifesto" too. What exactly are the aims of The Hacker? "Exploring", "Outsmarting you", and "judging people by what they say and think, not what they look like". Platitudes, really, if you set aside the emotional outbursts surrounding them. The Jargon File offer…

In my opinion, the Jargon File is a fun look back at historical hacker lifestyles, but it's also a microcosm of a very few schools in the 60s and 70s. Teenagers have a bad habit of reading the Jargon File and thinking that's how they MUST behave to be a hacker--I did it, to my embarrassment, and a trip to Defcon or most any freshman CS course will find others doing the same. You don't have to start saying "grok" to b…

> I did it, to my embarrassment

You're not the only one. I give esr a lot of credit for having written the Jargon File at all, because I would not be what I am today had I not encountered it in childhood. But I also give him a lot of blame for writing it in a way that, however satisfactory it must be to his many and multifarious personal prejudices, militates directly against its value in the role he purports to intend that it fill.

Re: The Hacker's Manifesto (1986)

#76
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, the Jargon File is a fun look back at historical hacker lifestyles, but it's also a microcosm of a very few schools in the 60s and 70s. Teenagers have a bad habit of reading the Jargon File and thinking that's how they MUST behave to be a hacker--I did it, to my embarrassment, and a trip to Defcon or most any freshman CS course will find others doing the same. You don't have to start saying "grok" to b…

A lot of people have adopted "grok" without understanding its subversive connotations. The shade of Robert Heinlein is laughing at us all. Edit: just checked the Jargon File on "grok," and it mentions neither sexual congress nor ritual cannibalism. I think ESR may be chuckling as well.

> The shade of Robert Heinlein is laughing at us all.

Hardly a new state of affairs. I mean, he invented the Rapture of the Nerds back in the fifties!

Re: The Hacker's Manifesto (1986)

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cite a bunch of people echochambering how much of a big, bad racist ESR is and call him names. The two direct quotes from him make policy points about drama from employees belonging to a group known for same and about anti-racism being used as a motivation for handwaving what he claims is a valid demographic observation. Even if you don't agree with his (nutzo!) politics you should refrain from repeating sloppy a…

Maybe I've been observing him for longer and more closely than you have. Using the word "thug" in a conversation about street fighters is one thing. But using it to viciously attack people in the open source community who take offense at an idiotic click-bait essay entitled "Blacks are Lazy" that you happen to agree with is something else entirely. With dog whistles, context matters. You have read the essay, haven't…

Russ's essay makes a different point than "ho boy them blacks sure are lazy aye tell you wut". His essay makes the claims:

(1) Black are lazier than whites if by lazy we mean that they appear to work less hard than whites. This same definition would imply that whites (at least in the areas of Texas I'm familiar with) are lazier than latinos.

(2) For historical reasons, their culture values leisure time more.

(3) For historical reasons, they are paid less for the same unit of work than whites.

(4) Because of (2) and (3), there is no incentive for them to work harder than they currently do.

The meat of the position is halfway through the first paragraph:

> I think that is what led people into the mistaken idea that blacks are lazy--as a characteristic of being black. They're not; it's an economically-ignorant idea to say that they are. They're just rationally valuing their leisure time at the same rate as whites, getting paid less for the same work, and deciding to work less because of it.

Now, we can all disagree with the various premises of his reasoning. I disagree with the general observation in (1). I think many people could disagree with (2) and (3) depending on what facts they'd like to present. (4) does make sense if you agree with (2) and (3) and provides an economic reason for (1).

I don't find the essay correct, but I also don't find it particularly racist in the perjorative sense. It is limited in scope to the population of African-Americans descended from slavery, but then we'd consider a study on Irish-Americans and rates of abortion racist as well.

I disagree that people should've been calling for his dismissal over what amounts to armchair sociology and anthropology; I believe that we shouldn't tar-and-feather people when we could do better by debating them politely (as we are here).

> And who exactly was being "anti-intellectual", and using "violence" to "suppress his opposing viewpoints" and force him to resign, as you claim?

This is misquoting what I said. For reference:

> but with a lot of people, especially of intellectual background, it is closer to its original term of derision towards anti-intellectuals and folks who would use violence to suppress opposing viewpoints.

I was talking about the general case, not the constructed defense of Russ against violence you seem to be trying to trip me up on. My observation is that among essayists with a particular background when they write thug it is shorthand for "jack-booted thug" not "thug lyfe". It is used to invoke the image of being suppressed for badthink by folks summoning the morally outraged, as we saw in the '30s and '50s.

~

The Bruce Perens thing I have no comment on without more background information, other than to say "Goddamnit ESR".

~

The dogwhistle thing I keep a similarly moderate position on: I believe that there are absolutely phrases that can be used to signal to different portions of an audience. I think to claim otherwise shows a lack of creativity at best and a willful ignorance of public speaking at worst.

That said, it is rhetorically terribly convenient to be able to claim your opponent is using coded signals during a discussion which sympathizers don't recognize (because they're good upstanding folks) and which are of course being used for nefarious purposes.

I have seen people getting increasingly eager to throw out "dog whistle" (and "virtue signal" and "false flag" and all kinds of other rubbish) these days at the slightest provocation instead of actually countering the arguments themselves.

It is lazy, it is sloppy, and it makes sound positions ("Hey, discrimination based on ethnicity is wrong") look like they're too weak to defend conventionally.

Re: The Hacker's Manifesto (1986)

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I've been observing him for longer and more closely than you have. Using the word "thug" in a conversation about street fighters is one thing. But using it to viciously attack people in the open source community who take offense at an idiotic click-bait essay entitled "Blacks are Lazy" that you happen to agree with is something else entirely. With dog whistles, context matters. You have read the essay, haven't…

I'm a bit confused about what you're trying to achieve here. Out of curiosity I just headed over to ESR's blog. The thing that stands out most is that 95% of the commenters there are uninformed nutcases (and I mean this literally). On the other hand you seem to cherry pick some incidents and exaggerate/misrepresent the facts. Today is the first time ever that I've heard the claim that "thug" has the "n-word" connotat…

Well maybe after you've hung around the hacker news community for more than 22 minutes, you'll begin to understand. I've known Eric Raymond for well over a year to every minute that you've been a member of this community.

The "Blacks are Lazy" post you're linking to is the revised post-resignation damage-control edition. The original post is archived here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Russ_Nelson#Blacks_are_la...

Remember, part of "plausible deniability" is being able to mansplain how the term makes sense in a non-racist way. So you're still on the hook to mansplain to me how exactly the members of the open source software community who wanted Russ Nelson to resign are "thugs" perpetrating "violence"? Who threatened Russ's life, exactly? "Name them and shame them" as Raymond says: what are their names?

Was it anything like the way Eric S Raymond threatened Bruce Peren's life, then claimed he was "merely" trying to defame him? Does Raymond's death threat meet your definition of "thuggish" behavior?

Or do you take Raymond's explanation at face value, that his actual intention was just to defame Perens and not literally kill him, and that makes him a better person than a "thug" that he accuses other members of the open source community of being?

Or, like Raymond, is it your believe that white people who threaten other people's lives and attempt to defame them shouldn't be called "thugs", while the term does apply perfectly to members of the open source community who sincerely and non-violently object to an essay entitled "Blacks are Lazy", and would rather not have the person who made such a ridiculous racist claim representing them as their leader?

Am I cherry picking by pointing out the hypocrisy?

Here are a few easily found references to the "thug" dog whistle -- it's quite common and well documented, and your feigned ignorance is a textbook example of plausible deniability in dog whistle politics. The next formulaic step would be to accuse me of being racist for perceiving the hidden meaning of the dog whistle.

The Dog Whistle Has Sounded: How the Right Talks About 'Thugs' Like Trayvon Martin

http://gawker.com/5899322/the-dog-whistle-has-sounded-how-th...

>The most important effect of race-baiting through the dog whistle, however, is that it really does function as bait. When you conspicuously label black kids as "thugs" and white kids as "unruly teens," you bait someone else into noticing it and responding. In this respect, conservative commentators for the last 20 years have been nothing short of masterful. They've turned unregenerate racism into a thought exercise you might as well call "Schrödinger's Black."

Dog Whistle Politics: Backwards caps and hippity-hop

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dog_whistle_politics#Backwards_...

>"Thug culture." Just use the n-word, we all know what you're saying anyway.[1][2] It comes off like saying black people are dumb while trying not to sound like they are saying black people are dumb. ("If only black people were smart enough to realize how dumb they really are.")

Blowing Racial Dog Whistles: Berkeley Prof Blasts Conservatives For “Coded Messages”

http://alumni.berkeley.edu/california-magazine/just-in/2014-...

>Lopez says social media is making it easier to identify and discuss dog-whistles when they are used, pointing to the recent Twitter campaign to get people to stop calling Seattle Seahawks defensive player Richard Sherman, a Stanford alum, a “thug.” Lopez hopes such campaigns will prevent Republicans from using dog whistles to attack progressive government—given that he views progressive government as the way to begin resurrecting the middle class.

Game Change

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/02/03/game-change-3

>At a press conference, on Wednesday, Sherman talked about the word “thug”: “The only reason it bothers me is because it seems like it’s the accepted way of calling somebody the N-word nowadays. . . . What’s the definition of a thug, really?”

A Dog Whistle By Any Other Name.

http://macklyons.blogspot.nl/2014/01/a-dog-whistle-by-any-ot...

>"Amish." "Thugs." "Ferals." "Holder's People." These codewords usually mean one thing and one thing only when spoken and written in context of black Americans, especially black Americans who are suspected of criminal acts or behaviors. They also thrive in the realm of social acceptability whereas letting anything resembling the dreaded N-word form on your lips could result in a well-deserved round of ostracism.

Re: The Hacker's Manifesto (1986)

#79
post #68
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, the Jargon File is a fun look back at historical hacker lifestyles, but it's also a microcosm of a very few schools in the 60s and 70s. Teenagers have a bad habit of reading the Jargon File and thinking that's how they MUST behave to be a hacker--I did it, to my embarrassment, and a trip to Defcon or most any freshman CS course will find others doing the same. You don't have to start saying "grok" to b…

> adopt the idiotic "-p convention" which doesn't even really exist in Lisp any more. Do you have a better way of signaling to the reader that a function is a predicate? I don't write a ton of Common Lisp, but I do still see quite of a bit of foop when I read Common Lisp. Possible that most of the code I'm reading was written when this was still a thing though... I think the only reason this doesn't exist in Clojure…

You can name your symbol as you want in Lisp, "(make-symbol s)" works for all string "s". With the reader, if you need to define symbols with spaces or otherwise not treated as symbols, or if you want to ensure the names are not upcased (it depends on the readtable), you enclose the name in bars: |anything, whatever| is a single symbol, as well as || (the empty symbol).

The convention for predicates is to use "-p" (there is a hyphen if the rest of the symbol has hyphens, otherwise no hyphen). I think I saw a few libraries that define "thing?" predicates, but that is quite rare. People generally tend to not break conventions in practice, even though "?" can be regarded as a logical prefix for predicates.

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