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Debt. Terror. Politics. To Seattle Millennials, the Future Looks Scary

nytimes.com

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Re: Debt. Terror. Politics. To Seattle Millennials, the Future Looks Scary

#71

Post by nickbauman »

CaptSpify wrote: post #53
nickbauman wrote: post #8

A "broken political system", please. Like Syria? Most of the Arab Spring? Even Brexit? There are people literally laying down their lives to get an opportunity to participate in such a "broken" system as ours in the US. If you don't like the system, work to change it. In the US at least you won't go to jail for doing that. Good grief!

We're not as bad as Syria, so that means we've hit a utopia? This is sliding scale, not binary

I never said utopia. This started with the term "broken". Hence my original assertion. So I think we're in "violent agreement" here.

Re: Debt. Terror. Politics. To Seattle Millennials, the Future Looks Scary

#72

Post by dragonwriter »

nickbauman wrote: post #8

A "broken political system", please. Like Syria? Most of the Arab Spring? Even Brexit? There are people literally laying down their lives to get an opportunity to participate in such a "broken" system as ours in the US. If you don't like the system, work to change it. In the US at least you won't go to jail for doing that. Good grief!

> If you don't like the system, work to change it. In the US at least you won't go to jail for doing that.

Prison, maybe not, but people go to jail all the time for that.

Re: Debt. Terror. Politics. To Seattle Millennials, the Future Looks Scary

#73

Post by pnathan »

ghaff wrote: post #57
pnathan wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In short, the middle class baby boomer lifestyle seems completely out of reach for most in their twenties and thirties. Seattle houses (condos on the market are usually pretty fancy and on par with house prices) are roughly 450K on the low end; neighboring cities hew to that, with the usual SES modifiers. So if you're making, say, 100K/yr salary, your conservative financial buy of a house is about 300K. Welp. There…

>stupid high cost of housing that has been produced by stupid anti-development laws That's a convenient bogeyman. That's not to say there isn't truth to it--more or less depending upon the locale. But at least an equal driver is the relatively sudden desire of certain demographics to live in a handful of urban areas. I'd add that if someone has farted around until they're 32 and just getting ready to think about star…

> That's a convenient bogeyman. That's not to say there isn't truth to it--more or less depending upon the locale. But at least an equal driver is the relatively sudden desire of certain demographics to live in a handful of urban areas.

That's true! I'm in Seattle, which is undergoing a job boom and concomitant low supply of housing. Lots of people are like "I WANT A JOB" and showing up.

> I'd add that if someone has farted around until they're 32 and just getting ready to think about starting a career, I'm not sure in what period they'd be in good shape to buy a house in anything considered a passable neighborhood with employment possibilities.

Mmm.... wiggles hands depends on what era and what locale. It's been definitely doable in the less-urban areas. Still true today in the right intersection of suburban and employment area. And of course, the US Gov has been doing various amounts of subsidizing over time for different blocks.

edit: oh yes.

There's a really complicated set of class/aspirational class thing where working in trades is often looked down upon, and (starving) artists are looked up to, and often it's seen as better (by some) to be unemployed and looking for working in your chosen field than employed in a crappy job and looking for your chosen work. I don't think it's very well understood - at least from my reading - and certainly it's not economically effective for the US population.

Re: Debt. Terror. Politics. To Seattle Millennials, the Future Looks Scary

#74

Post by AnimalMuppet »

pnathan wrote: post #18
nickbauman wrote: post #8

A "broken political system", please. Like Syria? Most of the Arab Spring? Even Brexit? There are people literally laying down their lives to get an opportunity to participate in such a "broken" system as ours in the US. If you don't like the system, work to change it. In the US at least you won't go to jail for doing that. Good grief!

As near as I can tell, the complaints of 'broken' come from people who don't participate. People who participate somehow seem to find ways to get some change in their desired direction.

But always less change than they wanted, for all participants, for all directions of desired change. Some view that as the reality of politics - it involves compromise with others of different views. And some others view that as the system being corrupt, because it refused to listen to their desires.

While the system is less responsive than it should be, while there are elements of corruption, I don't have a lot of sympathy for the "take my ball and go home" whiners.

Re: Debt. Terror. Politics. To Seattle Millennials, the Future Looks Scary

#75

Post by AnimalMuppet »

gm-conspiracy wrote: post #37

Somebody mentioned a few days ago some rural areas outside of Portland with co-op fiber in gigabit speeds... Can anybody comment on the location of these areas and travel time to Seattle?

Portland-Seattle is 3 hours one way. You might not want that as a commute.

Re: Debt. Terror. Politics. To Seattle Millennials, the Future Looks Scary

#76

Post by keyboardhitter »

I tried to avoid reading this article because of its headline but I gave in this morning.

These generalizations about Millennials are strange to me. I see over and over again in popular media that Millennials are in a rut, and things aren't fair because of a foundation that was laid, that we need to reform politics and make things fair for everyone, abolish debt, give college value, and et cetera.

I see all of this coverage and I am confused because I can't relate to it. I'm definitely biased. Did I just get lucky or something? Am I a part of the problem? Is this issue really so common or is it just being exaggerated for pageviews all over the Internet?

Context: I am a Millennial, born after 1990. Grew up in poverty on the east coast US. I moved to Seattle last year and I'm making very good money as a systems engineer. I didn't go to college, I've just worked my way through jobs in the last few years since graduating high school.

I am daunted by terror and politics just like many other people. I have questions, and I want things to change, too. But I feel like my voice in the community, my opinions, and my fears don't matter because I am not struggling enough, or I make too much money, or that I'm promoting gentrification just by existing. Obviously, these things aren't true. Yet I find myself avoiding discussion about work, money, and the tech industry when I go out for beers with people around my age.

What a frustrating culture. I feel discouraged to say things like, "Becoming self-sufficient is NOT impossible!" It's very difficult but not impossible. I also feel like I should keep my success to myself, and that talking about my success is taboo or offensive to others somehow. Again, obviously not true. Maybe I just need to go outside more and read less articles / commentaries to see if this dichotomy even exists.

Re: Debt. Terror. Politics. To Seattle Millennials, the Future Looks Scary

#77

Post by bytefactory »

seiferteric wrote: post #34

The article mentions climate change, but I don't think puts enough importance. Really the other stuff does not bother me too much because it has all happened before and we have solutions. Meanwhile climate change marches on and we barely talk about it (relative to how important it is). To me it feels so important that I often find it hard to find meaning and enjoyment in my job because I know it is not going to help…

Keep in mind that you're one of the very small percentage of people that _can_ help humanity when it comes to global warming. Your being on HN suggests that you are probably in the small proportion of people that have the abilities and resources that can affect change.

Working to save money will give you resources that will let you participate in the decision making process. For example, let's consider a situation where you have $10000 that you would like to use to help. You could donate it to an effective charity, invest in Tesla, use it to lobby local government, buy solar panels, etc.

That means your job is actually enormously meaningful!

Re: Debt. Terror. Politics. To Seattle Millennials, the Future Looks Scary

#78

Post by pnathan »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #74
pnathan wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As near as I can tell, the complaints of 'broken' come from people who don't participate. People who participate somehow seem to find ways to get some change in their desired direction.

But always less change than they wanted, for all participants, for all directions of desired change. Some view that as the reality of politics - it involves compromise with others of different views. And some others view that as the system being corrupt, because it refused to listen to their desires. While the system is less responsive than it should be, while there are elements of corruption, I don't have a lot of s…

> Some view that as the reality of politics - it involves compromise with others of different views.

I've really aligned myself with this viewpoint the more I work in the corporate world. Things are a compromise, always. Purity is found in mathematics and, sometimes, theology.

I also think there's room for a certain level of what is called corruption: it's important to allow for judgement and slop, people who aren't facially qualified, but through a few connections getting them work can demonstrate that they really ARE qualified and capable.

Re: Debt. Terror. Politics. To Seattle Millennials, the Future Looks Scary

#79

Post by ghaff »

pnathan wrote: post #73
ghaff wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>stupid high cost of housing that has been produced by stupid anti-development laws That's a convenient bogeyman. That's not to say there isn't truth to it--more or less depending upon the locale. But at least an equal driver is the relatively sudden desire of certain demographics to live in a handful of urban areas. I'd add that if someone has farted around until they're 32 and just getting ready to think about star…

> That's a convenient bogeyman. That's not to say there isn't truth to it--more or less depending upon the locale. But at least an equal driver is the relatively sudden desire of certain demographics to live in a handful of urban areas. That's true! I'm in Seattle, which is undergoing a job boom and concomitant low supply of housing. Lots of people are like "I WANT A JOB" and showing up. > I'd add that if someone has…

>Mmm.... wiggles hands depends on what era and what locale.

Fair enough. There certainly used to be more opportunities for someone at 32 who was willing to work reliably and hard even if they weren't educated or otherwise have a developed set of skills. And, as you say, some of this is related to "the trades" not being viewed as appropriate work by certain demographics. (Of course, many trades require significant skill and it may be difficult to get started if you don't have the right connections.)

Re: Debt. Terror. Politics. To Seattle Millennials, the Future Looks Scary

#80

Post by ghaff »

collyw wrote: post #69
ghaff wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do often need to live in the vicinity of a city. However, in most cases (the Bay area being something of an exception), there's plenty of reasonably priced housing within commuting distance of large cities. (And, in fact, many of the jobs are not even in the urban cores anyway.) In the Boston area for example, most of the computer-related jobs are not actually in the city and there is plenty of reasonably priced…

Yes, but I did say the mountains, not the suburbs. There is stuff (for me) to do in the mountains. I would rather pay the extra rent to live in a city rather than the suburbs.

Sure. If you have the money, by all means live wherever you prefer. However, this discussion started around the idea that many people feel they have to live in the vicinity of a city, in part because of employment, but then don't want to rent/buy in less expensive neighborhoods--including suburbs. That's a choice/preference.
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