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Organisms might be quantum machines

bbc.com

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Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#41

Post by flukus »

jheriko wrote: post #39
avindroth wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotal evidence is evidence. But just one data point. The bias most commit is thinking that a data point is more valuable because you know more about it. Just because you know the story behind it doesn't mean it's more important.

i'd say its often too wooly to even call a single data point, but in other cases its obviously very many. if 1000s of people are telling the same story, thats 1000s of potential data points... they lose value from being ill defined rather than being small in number.

> if 1000s of people are telling the same story, thats 1000s of potential data points... they lose value from being ill defined rather than being small in number. reply

They don't exist in isolation though. If thousands are telling the same story and there is no independent corroboration then it's more likely that one person told a story and thousands repeated it.

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#43

Post by jheriko »

flukus wrote: post #41
jheriko wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i'd say its often too wooly to even call a single data point, but in other cases its obviously very many. if 1000s of people are telling the same story, thats 1000s of potential data points... they lose value from being ill defined rather than being small in number.

> if 1000s of people are telling the same story, thats 1000s of potential data points... they lose value from being ill defined rather than being small in number. reply They don't exist in isolation though. If thousands are telling the same story and there is no independent corroboration then it's more likely that one person told a story and thousands repeated it.

that is a good insight. thanks.

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#45

Post by flukus »

jheriko wrote: post #27

quite interesting, but its a bit confused... and its not exactly a revelation that processes involving molecules or particles are best explained by quantum effects. this is precisely where quantum physics came from - trying to explain these things. "The wet, warm, bustling environment of living cells is the last place you might expect to see quantum events." stuff like this is misleading imo. its exactly the sort of…

>stuff like this is misleading imo. its exactly the sort of place you expect to see quantum effects - because its in the universe and at the appropriate scale.

Isn't this a few orders of magnitude above where you'd expect to see quantum effects?

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#46

Post by pdonis »

flukus wrote: post #45
jheriko wrote: post #27

quite interesting, but its a bit confused... and its not exactly a revelation that processes involving molecules or particles are best explained by quantum effects. this is precisely where quantum physics came from - trying to explain these things. "The wet, warm, bustling environment of living cells is the last place you might expect to see quantum events." stuff like this is misleading imo. its exactly the sort of…

>stuff like this is misleading imo. its exactly the sort of place you expect to see quantum effects - because its in the universe and at the appropriate scale. Isn't this a few orders of magnitude above where you'd expect to see quantum effects?

> Isn't this a few orders of magnitude above where you'd expect to see quantum effects?

No. Chemistry itself is fundamentally dependent on quantum effects; quantum effects determine the structure of atoms and molecules, how they combine, and how much energy is involved in those processes. That's true whether the processes are taking place in living bodies or not. My reaction to this article is basically the same as jheriko's: this is news?

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#47

Post by mirimir »

Terr_ wrote: post #23
mixedmath wrote: post #2

Only somewhat related: I'm currently reading Anathem by Neal Stephenson. I'm nearing the end of the book, and the concept that human brains might use quantum processes in the decision-making process is a very important and prevalent idea in the novel. [Although he takes some artistic license --- it is only a novel, afterall]. So I've been thinking, at least passively, about organisms being quantum machines quite a bi…

My cynical prediction is that if quantum-effects are part of the brain, it will only be in a practical, philosophically-boring way. So they may be essential to basic plumbing shared by many species, but not otherwise a game-changing factor for "consciousness" or "intelligence".

For example:

Masgrau et al. (2006) Atomic Description of an Enzyme Reaction Dominated by Proton Tunneling

http://sci-hub.cc/10.1126/science.1126002

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#48

Post by Retric »

djsumdog wrote: post #16

In Kim Stanley Robinson's fictional series on Mars (Red, Blue, Green Mars), researches discover that memory is actually based on quantum physics. It's a really good series I highly recommend, and it's won awards because Robinson put a lot of research into make the book believable. The descriptions and time scales used in the book make it very accessible to engineers while also containing incredible character developm…

FYI, Bricks are dependent on quantum physics, so calling something classical is fuzzy thinking.

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#49

Post by jheriko »

flukus wrote: post #45
jheriko wrote: post #27

quite interesting, but its a bit confused... and its not exactly a revelation that processes involving molecules or particles are best explained by quantum effects. this is precisely where quantum physics came from - trying to explain these things. "The wet, warm, bustling environment of living cells is the last place you might expect to see quantum events." stuff like this is misleading imo. its exactly the sort of…

>stuff like this is misleading imo. its exactly the sort of place you expect to see quantum effects - because its in the universe and at the appropriate scale. Isn't this a few orders of magnitude above where you'd expect to see quantum effects?

It's quite a few below for some effects. Have you heard of the double slit experiment?

But actually the scale of cells and their structures is macro-molecule scale... a lot of the behaviour of those things (DNA, proteins etc..) is very quantum mechanical.. there are also structures working with ions and even protons (hydrogen ion) in there.

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#50

Post by saalweachter »

djsumdog wrote: post #18
danbruc wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a reliable source for that? I omitted adding a source because if you look for scientific research on homeopathy you find essentially only studies stating that it does not work, Wikipedia has plenty of references.

I too would be interested in a source. I don't think that homeopathy works, but I am willing to admit I can be wrong. Doubt is essential to make progress: http://khanism.org/science/doubt/ Also, the placebo effect shouldn't be used dismissively. If you convince someone they should be feeling pain (tell them they're next to a low frequency transmitter that causes pain when they're really next to an empty speaker box),…

You have to be very, very when discussing the placebo effect to distinguish between reporting differences and actual differences. That gets very complicated when you only have self-reporting of a subjective state to evaluate things on.

The classic study was on asthma treatments. Patients would subjectively report feeling better when on the placebo treatment, but the objective measurements of lung function showed no difference.

If people report being in less pain or less depressed when on a placebo treatment but attempt & complete suicide at the same rate... well, fuck.

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