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I am very saddened to announce that I am quitting Tor

shiromarieke.github.io

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Re: I am very saddened to announce that I am quitting Tor

#41

Post by bleublanche »

rjzzleep wrote: post #22

What we're doing in tech right now is extremely dangerous. We're mixing political correctness over fact finding (i.e. what she said as first shoot then ask) with technical competency. Remember when we shot Brendan Eich and replaced him with a marketing dude and then wondered why Firefox is suddenly driven by marketing decisions? The boundaries are pretty(I say pretty, because even here countries opinions differ) clea…

We're talking about physical rape. Jake's a rapist. He's also sexually assaulted plenty of people (and this attention is likely to turn up more victims) but this is about rape. And Marie is one of the apologists he needs to keep going. And the idea that he slept with Alison is his self-serving lie. Rape the victim, then smear her in the media. That is what Jake is doing with Marie. Tor is very lucky to be rid of them both.

Re: I am very saddened to announce that I am quitting Tor

#42

Post by bleublanche »

PuffinBlue wrote: post #2

If anyone could take the time to break down what this is about and why it's significant for those like me who are very out of the loop I'm sure we'd appreciate it.

One of Jake's girlfriends is quitting Tor because people don't like her so much because she's supporting a rapist. She's also likely been behind the recent media smear against the victim. To be clear, it's rape.

Re: I am very saddened to announce that I am quitting Tor

#43

Post by zorpner »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #40
zorpner wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like we might be talking past each other -- conscious vs. unconscious bias is a complex issue worth discussing, but is only tangentially related to complaints about political correctness, which are all demands not for free speech, but for consequence-free speech. I am also intensely pro-free speech. As a concrete example, I am in favor of the right of people to discuss their displeasure with someone's (freely!…

I don't think we are. My thesis is simple: everyone is biased, and we all need to tolerate each other. You can have your views, as long as your decisions are transparent when scrutinized by others to ensure your views (which others might consider abhorrent) did not come into play. You don't want to take the pitchforks from one group, and hand them to the other.

Hrm. The idea that an arbitrary decision could be scrutinized in isolation to determine the amount of bias that went into it is... optimistic at best. Realistically it's willfully naive, and practically it serves to preserve the status quo of bias in the workplace and in society.

You talk pretty big ("I will protect your right to free speech to the death"!), but it's quite clear that you wont't actually defend anyone's right to free speech (unless they're discussing their own bigotry, in which case apparently we aren't permitted to freely speak against them).

EDIT: A simpler way to put it might be that the decisions you make regarding whose free speech you defend are obviously colored by your own unconscious bias.

Re: I am very saddened to announce that I am quitting Tor

#44

Post by toomuchtodo »

zorpner wrote: post #43
toomuchtodo wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we are. My thesis is simple: everyone is biased, and we all need to tolerate each other. You can have your views, as long as your decisions are transparent when scrutinized by others to ensure your views (which others might consider abhorrent) did not come into play. You don't want to take the pitchforks from one group, and hand them to the other.

Hrm. The idea that an arbitrary decision could be scrutinized in isolation to determine the amount of bias that went into it is... optimistic at best. Realistically it's willfully naive, and practically it serves to preserve the status quo of bias in the workplace and in society. You talk pretty big ("I will protect your right to free speech to the death"!), but it's quite clear that you wont't actually defend anyone…

> Realistically it's willfully naive, and practically it serves to preserve the status quo of bias in the workplace and in society.

It's willfully naive to think that witch hunts will remove the bias you seek to remove.

Re: I am very saddened to announce that I am quitting Tor

#45

Post by ryacko »

zorpner wrote: post #28
rjzzleep wrote: post #22

What we're doing in tech right now is extremely dangerous. We're mixing political correctness over fact finding (i.e. what she said as first shoot then ask) with technical competency. Remember when we shot Brendan Eich and replaced him with a marketing dude and then wondered why Firefox is suddenly driven by marketing decisions? The boundaries are pretty(I say pretty, because even here countries opinions differ) clea…

Don't be ridiculous. Eich couldn't be CEO if for no other reason than that he didn't have a narrative ready for when people brought up his donation to a controversial cause. Seriously basic PR, and he wasn't up for it. No CEO. It's the same reason Yarvin can't run a technical organization -- not because he's not technically competent (he isn't, but that's a different conversation), but because he can't help himself f…

His... violent racism? I do not think you will see Yarvin saying all "Bleks r dumb."

Re: I am very saddened to announce that I am quitting Tor

#46

Post by tzs »

zorpner wrote: post #28
rjzzleep wrote: post #22

What we're doing in tech right now is extremely dangerous. We're mixing political correctness over fact finding (i.e. what she said as first shoot then ask) with technical competency. Remember when we shot Brendan Eich and replaced him with a marketing dude and then wondered why Firefox is suddenly driven by marketing decisions? The boundaries are pretty(I say pretty, because even here countries opinions differ) clea…

Don't be ridiculous. Eich couldn't be CEO if for no other reason than that he didn't have a narrative ready for when people brought up his donation to a controversial cause. Seriously basic PR, and he wasn't up for it. No CEO. It's the same reason Yarvin can't run a technical organization -- not because he's not technically competent (he isn't, but that's a different conversation), but because he can't help himself f…

> Don't blame an increasingly inclusive and considerate culture for the continued incompetence of a bigoted few. It's not hard to do good technical work, but apparently it's quite difficult for these particular white men to manage without funding/advocating/practicing bigotry and sexism.

There's no way you can reasonably tie Eich's views on gay marriage to his being a white man, so I'm having a hard time figuring out why you mentioned his race or gender. Among white men, prop 8. barely won, 51% to 49%. Among blacks, it won 70% to 30% (62% to 37% for black men, 75% to 25% for black women). Latinos were 53% to 47%, with men 2% higher than women. It lost among asians, 49% to 51%. I have not seen a breakdown of asians by gender. Supporting prop 8. was not a "white man" position.

(Some other breakdowns of the vote are also quite interesting. In the $30-75k and in $100-150k groups it won, 54% to 46%. In $75-100k it was 50/50. In the below $30k and the above $150k groups it lost, 47% to 52% and 46% to 54%, respectively. It won every age group over 30, and lost every age group under 30. It won about 65% to 35% among Christians, lost 33% to 67% among Jews/other, and lost 10% to 90% among those who say they have no religion. Among Christians it won, 84% to 16% among those who attend Church weekly, and lost 46% to 54% among those who attend occasionally, and lost 17% to 83% among those who never attend Church).

Re: I am very saddened to announce that I am quitting Tor

#47

Post by js8 »

bitwize wrote: post #13

Yeah, and Camille Cosby stands by Bill. Hillary Clinton also stood by her husband, even though he criminally lied about the Lewinsky affair and has a long list of sexual liaisons some of which may cross the line into assault. Accept it: your ex-bf is a dick and everyone he was a dick to has a right to be pissed.

I think this is the kind of bias that the OP is complaining about. If there is a doubt about you being biased when you like someone, why there shouldn't be a doubt about it when you don't like someone?

Re: I am very saddened to announce that I am quitting Tor

#48

Post by belorn »

moomin wrote: post #9
PuffinBlue wrote: post #2

If anyone could take the time to break down what this is about and why it's significant for those like me who are very out of the loop I'm sure we'd appreciate it.

Jake was accused of multiple cases of sexual harassment, amongst other things. Tor held an investigation and found that the allegations held up. He was very popular and high-profile, but Tor decided it was best for the project to no longer be associated with him. The rest of this is the inevitable consequence of any split of this nature. FWIW I think they did the right, and the hard, thing.

According to the article here, one of the accusers was part of the group that held that investigation, determined that the allegations held up, and decided that tor should no longer be associated with him.

If that is true, then really, that is one of the more devious uses of "anonymous" accusation followed by an "independent" investigation and "impartial" decision that I have ever seen. Would it be socially accepted if it was publicly known that the same person was an accuser, a investigator and a judge at the same time?

Re: I am very saddened to announce that I am quitting Tor

#49

Post by gdy »

zasz wrote: post #31
TillE wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's not improbable that he would've refrained from being an ass to his ex-girlfriend That's not what she says: "Still, I do have a weird feeling about many of these stories because they contain facts I know are wrong" Remember that time a couple people accused Appelbaum of sexually harrassing a woman, and then she said that's not what happened at all? Yeah. The sad thing is that I'm fairly confident that most of t…

I'm responding to the part in her email where she said Jake was a great guy who had always treated her right.

You misrepresented it as a basis for her position.

Re: I am very saddened to announce that I am quitting Tor

#50

Post by gdy »

parfe wrote: post #7

I read the whole drama bomb which could be a high school aged spat as easily as the adults involved in the Tor project, but this stood out: >To be clear I believe Jake has hurt people (which he has admitted himself) and didn't respect people's boundaries. I do not believe he is a rapist or a harasser and I am wondering what the people who started this campaign are trying to achieve. Admitting he's abusive and ignores…

You've just hurt "that woman" by writing this. Maybe you should be "removed" from this community?
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