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Truth in stereotypes

aeon.co

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Re: Truth in stereotypes

#81

Post by jomamaxx »

jomamaxx wrote: post #63
adrianN wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And a smart ML system would correspondingly put a lot more weight on those variables than on race.

A smart ML system wouldn't put any weight on race. Because we know it's not causal. Also - it's probably illegal, and surely immoral.

"Does the existence of gray disprove the notion that black and white are colors?"

Black and White are colours.

People who we commonly describe as 'Black' are not the colour 'Black'.

Tell me - which Black person on planet earth is the 'definitive Black' which equates to '100%' Black.

Barack Obama is 'mostly Black' on one side, 'mostly White' on the other. But his father was from Kenya. Does this make his father 100% Black? Because there are much darker skinned people in West Africa.

Forget colour, it's confusing you. It's a metaphor we use, that is really quite useful colloquially, but not useful beyond that.

There is no such thing as 'perfectly Black' or 'White' genetically. It's just an array of genes. That's it.

There is strong correlation with some genes and some cultures. That's it.

Re: Truth in stereotypes

#82

Post by vivekd »

I agree with the conclusion, that there is truth in stereotypes. I think the bigger issue is what we do with the information we gather from stereotypes.

I have a strong desire for a world in which people are judged on their merits and character and not on their race, religion, age or any other superficial trait. I don't want a person's superficial traits to color their perception of them.

It does seem absurd to try and force the public to close their eyes to the truth of stereotypes and pretend they don't exist. However it seems equally absurd to label and draw conclusions about an individual based on their membership in a group.

I don't mind stereotypes being acknowledged and even being researched and analyzed . . . so long as it done with the understanding that not all individuals will display the characteristics associated with their group and each individual is given an opportunity to be judged on their merits as an individual rather than prejudged based on their membership in a particular group.

Re: Truth in stereotypes

#83

Post by mr_overalls »

js8 wrote: post #48
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #41

I think that this article highlights the left's version of climate change deniers. The climate change deniers on the right perceive that if climate change were true it would require significant government intervention in the economy (carbon tax, cap and trade, subsidies for clean energy, etc). Because that outcome is something they do not want, they try to deny the truth of climate change. On the left, because they p…

I am leftist and I agree with the last paragraph, and I think many leftists would. And that's the point - the stereotypes are useless in policy and decision making, and studying them is unscientific. They are factoids perhaps good for cocktail parties. I don't think that existence of correct stereotypes poses a great risk for ideology of the left, unlike global warming, which actually is a risk for completely free ma…

Let's say that you're forecasting budget requirements for a police department in a city whose demographics are changing.

Research indicates that in the United States, the correlation between violent crime rates and percentages of US state populations that are Black and Hispanic is 0.81. Controlling for poverty, education, and unemployment only reduces this to 0.78. [1]

Wouldn't this unusually high correlation be useful in making your budgeting decision?

[1] http://www.colorofcrime.com/colorofcrime2005.html

Re: Truth in stereotypes

#84

Post by mr_overalls »

dagw wrote: post #36
adrianN wrote: post #5

The accuracy or inaccuracy of stereotypes reminds me of the regulations and ethical debates regarding the use of machine learning for example for creditworthiness. The algorithms often turn out to become "racist", because from the data they have, race is a good predictor. I'm still somewhat ambivalent on that, because I'm not convinced that statistics can be racist. But people pointed out to me that the way these sta…

I'm not convinced that statistics can be racist Statistics don't exist in a vacuum, nor are they a part of nature. Every piece of statistics is the result of a person or a group of people grabbing a subset of some data, applying a collection of mathematical transformations to that data and interpreting the results. Every step of the process, from what data you chose to look and how you chose to collect that data, to…

That's why we have peer review. Are you saying that we should basically discard science because experimental design or statistical analysis can contain errors?

Re: Truth in stereotypes

#85

Post by js8 »

mr_overalls wrote: post #83
js8 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am leftist and I agree with the last paragraph, and I think many leftists would. And that's the point - the stereotypes are useless in policy and decision making, and studying them is unscientific. They are factoids perhaps good for cocktail parties. I don't think that existence of correct stereotypes poses a great risk for ideology of the left, unlike global warming, which actually is a risk for completely free ma…

Let's say that you're forecasting budget requirements for a police department in a city whose demographics are changing. Research indicates that in the United States, the correlation between violent crime rates and percentages of US state populations that are Black and Hispanic is 0.81. Controlling for poverty, education, and unemployment only reduces this to 0.78. [1] Wouldn't this unusually high correlation be usef…

No. Forecast based on the crime rate trend would be more precise than using race as a proxy.

Re: Truth in stereotypes

#86

Post by gwright »

pyrale wrote: post #11
adrianN wrote: post #5

The accuracy or inaccuracy of stereotypes reminds me of the regulations and ethical debates regarding the use of machine learning for example for creditworthiness. The algorithms often turn out to become "racist", because from the data they have, race is a good predictor. I'm still somewhat ambivalent on that, because I'm not convinced that statistics can be racist. But people pointed out to me that the way these sta…

> Those are pretty good points, but I still find it weird that we forbid businesses to use all the information they have available to make business decisions. Every rule in society can be formulated as a constraint on businesses. Typically, minimum wage prevents companies from making business decisions that would otherwise be profitable. Banning script money as a payment for wages also prevents them from making these…

The notion that 'common good' is a sufficient reason to restrict individual freedom is debatable. Mainly because it isn't really a definable concept and so 'common good' ends up being a magic phrase to justify almost any restriction small or large.

Your point about minimum wages is a bit misleading. These laws are almost always framed as restrictions on employers but it is worthwhile thinking about them as prohibitions on individuals also. They prohibit individuals from taking jobs that they otherwise would be happy to take. For low-skilled workers (including teenagers) the value of a job isn't just the hourly wage, although $7/hour is better than $0/hour also.

Re: Truth in stereotypes

#87

Post by jomamaxx »

Sohakes wrote: post #46
jomamaxx wrote: post #20

Wow. Amazing that someone would dare publish this in today's PC world. That said, when stereotypes are wrong - they are very wrong, right from the article: "2. Older people are generally more __________ and less __________ than adolescents. A. Conscientious; open to new experiences B. Neurotic; agreeable" Old people are WAY more 'conscientious' than young people. Old people vote, they plan, they don't overspend, they…

But the "right" answer is A, indeed.

Yeah, I misread that. My bad. Dam.

The prejudice is correct :)

Re: Truth in stereotypes

#88

Post by T2_t2 »

junko wrote: post #61
0134340 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>neglecting valid stereotypes That's where the problem arises. Some stereotypes aren't based on truth but of individuals or groups fearing what they don't know. As I mentioned before in the thread, many stereotypes, especially those perceived as supernatural and being shunned or killed because of real medical issues, were outright false and started and perpetuated because man fears what it doesn't know. Epileptics we…

Yep. Stereotypes are almost always being debunked too, either by a new generation with a new culture/outlook, or someone belonging to a stereotyped group steps out with unique enough traits that conflict with the stereotype itself - but of course those with the stereotype would fling their hands in the air and proclaim "Of course I don't mean to say that about all of them." Damage's done though. We all inevitably ste…

I think this is exactly what the article set out to disprove.

> particularly when it involves lots of lives as you risk dehumanisation.

The article stated:

> If people relied on their stereotypes more or less rationally, they would rely on them to inform judgments when they had little or no definitive information, but ignore them when they had definitive information. And it turns out this is just what most people do.

The idea that stereotyping is dehumanising, or used is some way to deny others, or put them in a box is specifically what the article says people don't do.

Instead, the article claims, people use stereotypes to improve the odds when there is no other information. To call that dehumanising is a pretty long bow to draw IMHO.

Re: Truth in stereotypes

#89

Post by T2_t2 »

vivekd wrote: post #82

I agree with the conclusion, that there is truth in stereotypes. I think the bigger issue is what we do with the information we gather from stereotypes. I have a strong desire for a world in which people are judged on their merits and character and not on their race, religion, age or any other superficial trait. I don't want a person's superficial traits to color their perception of them. It does seem absurd to try a…

From the article:

> If people relied on their stereotypes more or less rationally, they would rely on them to inform judgments when they had little or no definitive information, but ignore them when they had definitive information. And it turns out this is just what most people do.

So what we do with stereotypes is help us get to a better answer sans any other information, then disregard it completely when more information comes to hand. That seems like the perfect use for imperfect information.

Re: Truth in stereotypes

#90

Post by Chris2048 »

0134340 wrote: post #39
adrianN wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article gives a lengthy argument to show that "stereotypes are inaccurate" is inaccurate.

And I just gave a reason why stereotypes can be inaccurate . There's truth in stereotyping and also truth in being cautious about stereotyping because if we want to have a civil society, both frames of thought need moderated. Edit: Also are we getting the irony that "stereotypes are inaccurate" is a stereotype in itself that has proven at times to be inaccurate?

Aren't stereotypes distinct from myths?
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