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Truth in stereotypes

aeon.co

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Re: Truth in stereotypes

#61

Post by junko »

0134340 wrote: post #35
sevenless wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me quote Daniel Kahneman in "Thinking, Fast and Slow" "The social norm against stereotyping, including the opposition to profiling, has been highly beneficial in creating a more civilized and more equal society. It is useful to remember, however, that neglecting valid stereotypes inevitably results in suboptimal judgments. Resistance to stereotyping is a laudable moral position, but the simplistic idea that the r…

>neglecting valid stereotypes That's where the problem arises. Some stereotypes aren't based on truth but of individuals or groups fearing what they don't know. As I mentioned before in the thread, many stereotypes, especially those perceived as supernatural and being shunned or killed because of real medical issues, were outright false and started and perpetuated because man fears what it doesn't know. Epileptics we…

Yep. Stereotypes are almost always being debunked too, either by a new generation with a new culture/outlook, or someone belonging to a stereotyped group steps out with unique enough traits that conflict with the stereotype itself - but of course those with the stereotype would fling their hands in the air and proclaim "Of course I don't mean to say that about all of them." Damage's done though.

We all inevitably stereotype, even the most liberal can't claim otherwise. But history has never shown anything less bleak and painful when one stereotype is carried loudly and by a growing mass of hysteria. It's not worth it, imo, to debate so much of the validity of a stereotype, particularly when it involves lots of lives as you risk dehumanisation.

Re: Truth in stereotypes

#63

Post by jomamaxx »

adrianN wrote: post #59
jomamaxx wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a job vs not having a job + savings is pretty close to 'causal' when it comes to determining the ability to pay back a loan :) Far, far more so than skin colour :) which is absolutely not causal. I agree with your point theoretically, but pragmatically ... not so much :)

And a smart ML system would correspondingly put a lot more weight on those variables than on race.

A smart ML system wouldn't put any weight on race. Because we know it's not causal. Also - it's probably illegal, and surely immoral.

Re: Truth in stereotypes

#64

Post by norea-armozel »

I think stereotypes still need to taken with a grain of salt since many seem to be derived from n-hand sources which could've been distorted over successive retellings. It's not to say some stereotypes aren't true, but that people shouldn't put stock in them when making a moral judgment about an individual. I treat stereotypes as you would gossip where there's some grain of truth but it's next to impossible to distinguish between that truth and the bunk layered on top of it.

Re: Truth in stereotypes

#65

Post by hrnnnnnn »

norea-armozel wrote: post #64

I think stereotypes still need to taken with a grain of salt since many seem to be derived from n-hand sources which could've been distorted over successive retellings. It's not to say some stereotypes aren't true, but that people shouldn't put stock in them when making a moral judgment about an individual. I treat stereotypes as you would gossip where there's some grain of truth but it's next to impossible to distin…

> people shouldn't put stock in them when making a moral judgment about an individual

This is exactly what the article suggests people do, and finds that they do in real life.

"If people relied on their stereotypes more or less rationally, they would rely on them to inform judgments when they had little or no definitive information, but ignore them when they had definitive information. And it turns out this is just what most people do."

Re: Truth in stereotypes

#66

Post by ebalit »

whack wrote: post #40
sevenless wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you're cherry-picking stereotypes that are mostly incorrect (and look outright archaic). Whereas Lee Jussim (for example) has found that most stereotypes are mostly accurate. http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~jussim/unbearable%20accuracy%20o... Interestingly, stereotypes based on political party membership are consistently inaccurate. As the Kahneman quote I posted elsewhere shows, the reality is that resistance to rea…

> But you're cherry-picking stereotypes that are mostly incorrect (and look outright archaic). Whereas Lee Jussim (for example) has found that most stereotypes are mostly accurate. So your position is that if the stereotypes about Women/Blacks/Jews/Southerners/Gays were mostly accurate, it would be ok to discriminate against those groups on the basis of those stereotypes? In my previous post, I never claimed that ste…

I find the guideline described in the article to be quite good. If the decision is important (as for hiring), you should get as much information as you can.

It would be interesting to know if people are good at guessing the uncertainty of a stereotype and if they approximate a Bayesian integration of information.

It is the case for visual, spacial and sensorimotor information. I wouldn't be surprised if it was also the case for social information.

Re: Truth in stereotypes

#67

Post by wtbob »

CM30 wrote: post #2

I suspect much of this unease about stereotypes and researching them comes from the scientific community not wanting their work to be used to justify extremism or far right/far left political parties. After what happened with both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union misrepresenting scientific research to 'support' their policies, I suspect a lot of researchers want to avoid their own work being used for the same purpos…

> After what happened with both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union misrepresenting scientific research to 'support' their policies, I suspect a lot of researchers want to avoid their own work being used for the same purposes.

But we have the same effect, anyway. Take a look at the underlying scientific research regarding some politically-charged issues and you'll realise that many of the things all right-thinking people know are poorly-supported, or aren't supported, or simply aren't true at all.

Most people don't want truth: they want to feel good.

Re: Truth in stereotypes

#68

Post by carsongross »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #41

I think that this article highlights the left's version of climate change deniers. The climate change deniers on the right perceive that if climate change were true it would require significant government intervention in the economy (carbon tax, cap and trade, subsidies for clean energy, etc). Because that outcome is something they do not want, they try to deny the truth of climate change. On the left, because they p…

Very few people have lost their job for being skeptical of anthropogenic climate change.

"Racist" has been a career-ender and guarantee of social ostracism since the 1980s, at least. It is perhaps the most powerful meme that has ever been invented.

Re: Truth in stereotypes

#69

Post by ebfe »

jomamaxx wrote: post #63
adrianN wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And a smart ML system would correspondingly put a lot more weight on those variables than on race.

A smart ML system wouldn't put any weight on race. Because we know it's not causal. Also - it's probably illegal, and surely immoral.

>Because we know it's not causal.

How do we know that?

Re: Truth in stereotypes

#70

Post by sevenless »

carsongross wrote: post #68
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #41

I think that this article highlights the left's version of climate change deniers. The climate change deniers on the right perceive that if climate change were true it would require significant government intervention in the economy (carbon tax, cap and trade, subsidies for clean energy, etc). Because that outcome is something they do not want, they try to deny the truth of climate change. On the left, because they p…

Very few people have lost their job for being skeptical of anthropogenic climate change. "Racist" has been a career-ender and guarantee of social ostracism since the 1980s, at least. It is perhaps the most powerful meme that has ever been invented.

More accurately, complaining about left-wing political correctness has won the Right votes for decades, while even Hillary Clinton has done the odd bit of racist dog-whistling.

> It is perhaps the most powerful meme that has ever been invented.

"Heretic", "heathen", "infidel", "unpatriotic", "traitor", "communist", "un-American"...

Religious and nationalist political correctness is so pervasive it's hard to even recognize it as a form of PC.

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