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Stop Treating Marijuana Like Heroin

nytimes.com

201–210 of 266 posts

Re: Stop Treating Marijuana Like Heroin

#201
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know both. I have family members who smoke routinely for basically their lives. You would never know, they don't let it interrupt their life. To them it is more like coming home and having a glass of wine and relaxing on the couch with a good book. I also know and lived with roommates for whom marijuana was a real problem. The kind of person who would smoke every day, even coming home on their lunch break and takin…

>> I've seem how irritable they can be when they're not blazed. This is a symptom of this: >> They may not be chemically addicted When people who smoke weed on a regular basis stop, the effects are similar to nicotine withdrawal - irritability, anxiety, fatigue and difficulty concentrating. >> but the "harmless marijuana" trope is a little much. I agree and would also add that when people are forced to consider stati…

What are those statistics?

Re: Stop Treating Marijuana Like Heroin

#202
post #164

The big question is why drugs are illegal at all? Drugs are a multi trillion dollar business. 100's of billions of dollars turning the wheels of the shadow economy every day. Who stands to lose all that money if drugs were legalized? Who is involved in drug business? think of all of the players in the chain.. We know examples of developed countries where drugs are legalized and everyone did not become a junkie over n…

I recommend people read The Politics of Heroin and A Legacy of Ashes. Both great books. Basically, The US makes drugs illegal and then enforces embargoes against other countries so they comply. Drugs have a very inelastic demand so this doesn't actually stop people from using them, but it DOES make drugs an extremely profitable enterprise. Keeping drugs illegal has at least one massive 'benefit' -- if law enforcement…

I subscribe to a similar conspiracy theory on the war on drugs. I think the government keeps it around so that uneducated violent sociopaths have a way to earn big bucks without impacting regular citizens.

Think about it -- if drugs were legalized, what would unskilled thugs do for cash? They're not going to get jobs... they're going to commit real crimes like robbery, extortion, sex trafficking. Illegal drugs are a way to keep them occupied without really hurting anyone.

Re: Stop Treating Marijuana Like Heroin

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any real evidence to back anything you've said up? Sorry, but you can't quantify 10 years behind, it's just purely subjective. Just because you know people who are lazy and use cannabis, proves very little I'm afraid. Do they drink beer also? Not attacking you, but it's comments and attitudes like this that help politicians justify silly things, such as, "The war on drugs". The war on drugs is one of the…

I am 10000000% against the war on drugs. This is obviously anecdotal. I am simply saying that cannabis has a very dark side to it which robs young people of a lot of their productivity and ambition. They usually never drink alcohol I find - or very little. I know about 5 people who fell into this trap and when (some) of them packed it in have enormous regret. My point is that this isn't talked about with cannabis.

>I am simply saying that cannabis has a very dark side to it which robs young people of a lot of their productivity and ambition.

Who said productivity and ambition are absolute values? Are there some tablets of stone somewhere?

Re: Stop Treating Marijuana Like Heroin

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine showing vacant apartments to prospective renters since 1993 -- for 23 years. Lots of units, lots of prospective tenants. In 1993 I had no pool of 'before move-in/after move-in' experience with tenants. 23 years on, I have a large number of 'before move-in/after move-in' tenant experiences. So when a tenancy went bad, over time I started making a mental note of 1) the social cues the tenant made when I first m…

I understand that you've had some bad experiences with people who also happen to smoke marijuana, but you are painting with much too broad a brush. You must ask yourself: how accurate are you in your assessment of who smokes marijuana and who doesn't? For some of your tenants, I'm sure it's obvious that they partake. But, I'd wager many of your 'good' tenants do as well, and you have no idea. It's really not hard to…

'DGAF' is not always evident in the short time we meet, interact with a new tenant. Unlike a job interview process (several stages of contact: phone, in person several times, etc.) it's not practical for landlords to spend that much time with each prospective tenant.

The 18 tenants I've evicted in the past year and half -- they ALL slipped 'under the radar.'

My "cues/indicators" list above is 100% NOT all inclusive.

Until you've dealt over many years with pot smokers, in quantities, you really, really have no idea how defiant/grouchy/uncooperative/troublemaking they can be, behaviors you can only witness over a period of a lease.

Here's another example. 31 yo male, he should know better, right? About the useless 'crutch' of drugs and alcohol as the foundation for personal recreation?

Smoked up a storm. He befriended surrounding tenants, and so no one complained. NOTE: in our non-smoking properties, keeping in mind that very few people smoke these days and make an effort to only live in non-smoking apartment properties, if a non-smoker is exposed to 2nd hand smoke, do they complain to Management? Oh my god. Especially pot smoke. We get complaints like "the person below me is smoking pot, you said this was a non-smoking property, I don't want to get high from their 2nd hand smoke" -- we get COMPLAINTS. It's understandable, very few people smoke or want to be in close breathing proximity to smokers these days.

Well, I had to catch him in the act, he chummed up with the surrounding tenants "in range" and somehow got them to not complain. It wasn't easy. Caught him over the course of 2 weeks on our security cameras.

We didn't tell him "Joe, we have video evidence you're smoking" we just served the 3 Day Notice. He refused to stop. Went to eviction court, he lied to the Judge. HE'S UNDER OATH. "Judge, I stopped smoking weeks ago." Lied to the Judge while under threat of perjury. DEFIANT.

Then my attorney brought forth the photos and entered them in the record. The Judge looked at Joe. I'm thinking 'it's perjury, is Joe going to jail?' The Judge must have been in a good mood. He looked at my photo evidence for 20 seconds, BAM the gavel dropped, "judgment for the plaintiff."

Pot smokers are T-R-O-U-B-L-E.

It depends on how long they've been smoking. Those 3 years I smoked it as a teen, it was in the final year I started with bad behavior, and bad experiences I finally realized were not me.

So I don't really care how much a pot smoker says "it's fine, I'm fine, it's harmless."

My philosophy with ANYONE who uses pot, and this is solely because of my 3 years personal experience and the screwed up behaviors from pot smokers over 23 years of landlording:

get away from me. Stay away from me. I don't care if you compromise your personal life by thinking intoxication is a good foundation, just don't do it around me.

That stuff is a disaster in many ways BECAUSE the damage is so incremental, that the build of up negative consequences is invisible to the user.

I have personally walked the path and I now also have 23 years of screwups, pot smoking tenants causing weird problems no other (sober) tenant causes.

Let me say, I feel deeply sorry for anyone who leans on drugs and/or alcohol for 'recreation.'

If you find yourself frequently intoxicated for 'recreation' - from pot, alcohol, whatever -- MOST people are going to have problems from it. You can throw the dice with it over the long term if you want.

Re: Stop Treating Marijuana Like Heroin

#205
post #116

While I'm totally for drug (all drugs - not just cannabis) legalisation/regulation, I do think the "dangers" of marijuana have been really downplayed over the last few years. I know a lot of people at university who got into smoking it very often and basically lost 10+ years of their life to complete apathy to anything. Some have now stopped and are totally different people - just 10 years behind. While it doesn't ca…

I've also known three people who smoked marijuana regularly and developed serious life problems as a result, along with a larger number who didn't develop major problems but who definitely "stalled". I also knew many who smoked it regularly without major issues, so I'm not saying it inevitably causes problems, but I am 99.99% certain that if you already suffer problems with motivation or life direction, marijuana can…

> I am 99.99% certain that if you already suffer problems with motivation or life direction, marijuana can majorly f... you up.

> If you have your s... more or less together, you can probably use weed semi-regularly without too much damage. But if there are one or more real problems in your life, things which would take real effort and motivation to fix (poor social life / grades slipping / lack career direction / etc), weed will tempt you to chill out and ignore said problems. You concoct wild rationalisations about why you don't really want X, why people who chase X are manipulated by the system, etc, etc.

As a counterexample to your 99.99% certainty, I had more or less the opposite reaction. I was in a pretty terrible place about a year and a half ago, and I found myself coming home after work and getting high almost every weekday evening. Not only did it serve the intended purpose of getting me through the day-to-day of a pretty horrible and anxiety-inducing time in my life, the fact that I noticed myself using so much more was one of the clearest signals that made me realize that something was wrong in the first place (without the health costs and potential physical dependency that most other drugs would've imposed). In most measurable ways, I was still pretty functional (e.g., still very productive at work, etc), but the place I was in mentally was absolutely unsustainable.

That signal made me take a look at what might be wrong and start thinking about fixing it. As soon as I took the first step towards fixing everything I needed to, my marijuana usage dropped off a cliff (even though I had quit my job and had far, far more free time). A year after quitting, I'm better off in almost every way. AFAICT, marijuana is more or less like junk food (except physically better for you): the costs aren't as dramatic as other drugs but if you're doing it what you perceive as too often you should at least consider that there's an underlying reason (much as I would conclude I was stress eating or had a poorly balanced diet if I was eating junk food once a week or more).

Re: Stop Treating Marijuana Like Heroin

#206
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/dofp12.pdf - More than a third (35%) of drug offenders in federal prison at sentencing, had either no or minimal criminal history— lowest criminal history category. - Nearly a quarter (24%) of drug offenders in federal prison used a weapon in their most recent offense. Which is to say over 3/4 of them did not.

There may be 2 seperate issues, so I think the question is: Do the inmates in federal prison qualify as low level drug offenders ? Moreover, the term being discussed isn't a legal term with a definition, so as a result everyone kind of has their own opinion as to what qualifies. So for example, when I think of low level drug offenders forget people in federal prison and I would also think the vast majority of inmates…

My perspective on smuggling is that it can be non-violent (concealing a substance to get it through the a port of entry) and is a natural response to criminalization of a substance that people want but is being artificially constrained. Further, this question maybe entirely immaterial as I'd imagine the bulk of this would go away completely with legalization and safe access. I think we'd be left with the same levels of smuggling as we see with cigarettes.

Re: Stop Treating Marijuana Like Heroin

#207
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Ceteris paribus, mutatis mutandis, all else equal, blah blah blah, marijuana decreases motivation. Period. How is this controversial today? Here's an n = 1 study. A few years ago, I used a Pax to vaporize cannabis nearly every night for a year. I quit altogether after moving to an area where it was harder to buy. After a month or two, I unexpectedly noticed a fog had lifted. It was easier to summon the right wor…

Your sample size is less of an issue than the fact that you're describing an obviously bad habit. I'm glad you were able to alter your behavior so easily when you moved though.

Yes, that was what I was trying to say.

Maybe I'm putting too fine a point on it, but using cannabis for even one day will make you stupider and lazier the next day.

Using cannabis daily will make you stupider and lazier in general.

People who deny this are lying to themselves.

When I was a regular cannabis smoker, I had a high-paying, high-status job and was commended for my work. But I could have learned more and done more in that yearlong period - with no psychic cost. Stoners (and I certainly was one) concoct amazing rationalizations for the newly tighter bounds on their motivation.

Re: Stop Treating Marijuana Like Heroin

#208
post #82

The DEA needs to go bye bye, and be replaced by the DRA, Drug Rehabilitation Agency. While I respect the risks operational agents take against crime syndicates, the war on drugs is a disaster. Even the government’s own RAND corporation concluded enforcement is far worse than rehabilitation, with rehab being 7 times more effective than policing, 400 times more effective then border interdiction, and 800 times more eff…

I find it beyond irritating when you (seem to?) have widespread agreement that "the war on drugs is a failure" and that giving people ruinous criminal records for victimless drug crimes is not only counterproductive but probably morally reprehensible... yet the war marches on? When is this going to end?

Re: Stop Treating Marijuana Like Heroin

#209
post #56
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know both. I have family members who smoke routinely for basically their lives. You would never know, they don't let it interrupt their life. To them it is more like coming home and having a glass of wine and relaxing on the couch with a good book. I also know and lived with roommates for whom marijuana was a real problem. The kind of person who would smoke every day, even coming home on their lunch break and takin…

We seem to be ok with people dropping out and becoming monks, but somehow living a relaxed lifestyle is somehow a major problem. Is it ok for people not to be a cog in the machine that makes your lifestyle possible or not? Sure, I might be happier if my past self saved even more money, lived a vegan lifestyle, or learned to play an instrument. But, I don't think it's a problem that I have failed to optimize for makin…

very few people drop out to become monks, and to be blunt that is dangerous too:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acedia

Kathleen Norris wrote a book titled with the same name, and one of the things you notice about monastic life is that it's very spiritually dangerous, and often leads to a lot of abuses.

Re: Stop Treating Marijuana Like Heroin

#210
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I've seem how irritable they can be when they're not blazed. This is a symptom of this: >> They may not be chemically addicted When people who smoke weed on a regular basis stop, the effects are similar to nicotine withdrawal - irritability, anxiety, fatigue and difficulty concentrating. >> but the "harmless marijuana" trope is a little much. I agree and would also add that when people are forced to consider stati…

What are those statistics?

http://wtsc.wa.gov/News/marijuana-increased-in-2014-as-a-fac...
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