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Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

greatergood.berkeley.edu

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Re: Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

#121

Post by CPLX »

avindroth wrote: post #116
CPLX wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah exactly. Why don't both John and Steve both just worry about his own problems instead of trying to refine and optimize this needless intervention?

Jack responds, "I know... Jack knows it's bad for him. Let me ask, What do you live for? Why are you continuing your life on this planet? What will make you not regret on your deathbed? For me, life is a festival. I am here to enjoy all the attractions. The scrumptious food, the unforgettable experiences, and the thrilling rides. But nowadays I am realizing that a big part/joy of the festival is bringing other people…

Good luck with that.

Speaking only for myself, but finally teaching myself how to avoid that kind of messianic thinking has been a considerable benefit to me in my old age.

Re: Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

#122

Post by avindroth »

hosh wrote: post #90
avindroth wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay. Let's take an example from the article. Be transparent, honest, and authentic. Do not ever waiver from this; white lies and false smiles quickly snowball into a life lived out of alignment. Let's say John is this guy who is "transparent, honest, and authentic, and never waivering." And say Jack, John's friend, is addicted to playing Overwatch. John comes by and says, "Jack, you shouldn't play Overwatch. You are…

In your contrived example, it's missing some things. For John to be authentic, then he would need to first suss out why he feels so bothered by seeing John being addicted to playing Overwatch. Meaning, there is something that John is unaware of his own psyche that lead to feeling irritated by Jack's addiction. Being unaware of that means he might be _seen_ as transparent or authentic or honest -- you certainly did --…

First off, rapport isn't just from neuro-linguistic programming. (Funny you mention it, I was just reading an NLP book couple days ago.) And also to the HN crowd, you should specify NLP; most will think Natural Language Processing and be confused.

I agree with you on all of your points. With a feeling, you should figure out what caused it, and then figure out what caused that, and then recurse backwards until you actually get to the issue. Jerry Talley who taught intimacy at Stanford some time ago has a great lecture on this.

Where we disagree (but not actually, because it's so trivial), is labelling. If you define people-pleasers as those who cannot create rapport because they are self-absorbed, I couldn't agree with you more.

But part of me rejects that definition because then those people-pleasers aren't actually pleasing people.

Unless we are strictly going off the negative connotation of the word (which makes sense), the labelling behind this concept can only become confusing.

Great points, nevertheless. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Re: Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

#123

Post by avindroth »

hosh wrote: post #89
avindroth wrote: post #11

Pleasing people most definitely pays. That is how the world works; you give people what they want, and you get paid. Supply and demand. Preachers of self-reliance seem to confuse "not letting other people affect you" and "not caring about other people". Self-reliance and people-pleasing are two separate axes on a Cartesian plane. You can be both self-reliant and people-pleasing. Being self-reliant, but not people-ple…

"Pleasing people most definitely pays. That is how the world works; you give people what they want, and you get paid. Supply and demand." "Talking about truth and white lie as a dichotomy is childish. They are tools in a toolbox. If you feel guilty because you lied, then you are a slave to the principle of honesty." Integrity is wholeness of being, and it includes all of a person. It includes both the parts that will…

Sorry about the confusion. I can understand it, given my ill-defined and haphazard writing.

I do define "What people want" differently than most. Most often giving people what they really need at the right time pays off in the long run. That is the approach I endorse.

I think what you describe as integrity is what I endorse as well: master of all principles. Both lying and honesty are part of the toolkit.

I would add one more to integrity, and that is empathy. You need to know how to see things from the other person's perspective in order to give others what they need.

Re: Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

#124

Post by avindroth »

tdkl wrote: post #118
avindroth wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's detailed further in No More Mr. Nice Guy , but I will explain it. I specifically hate those who give to get. And when they give and don't get, they become passive-aggressive. If I have low self-esteem, here is how I might behave. For the purposes of this example, I am Jack and the other person is Elizabeth. 1. I want care and attention from Elizabeth. 2. I give care and attention to her, hoping I will get them b…

Loved that book, it's quite an eye opener.

Same, had a feeling you read that book haha.

The Way of the Superior Man by David Deida is a great follow-up. The guru stuff is sometimes overwhelming, but there are good ideas in that book.

There is also a fantastic summary/teaser of the book on FightMediocrity (YouTube channel).

Re: Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

#125

Post by avindroth »

kross wrote: post #78
avindroth wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigh. I know how to become happy. Getting paid is part of it. For me, happiness comes from Effective Altruism, which comes from increasing the quality of life for as many people as possible, which is only possible with adequate amount of finances. So get paid >> money >> help other people >> makes me happy. Of course, if you aren't self-reliant, the above doesn't mean anything. p.s. pleasing people also makes you hap…

> p.s. pleasing people also makes you happy, because you develop better relationships. I disagree with your causation. By people pleasing you develop relationships that are inauthentic, which creates a fiction of good within your relationships. People pleasing and expecting those "better relationships" to be real is just perpetuating your own fiction.

We must define people-pleasing differently then. I am way too lazy to rewrite stuff ten million times, read some of my other comments.

Re: Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

#126

Post by avindroth »

CPLX wrote: post #121
avindroth wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jack responds, "I know... Jack knows it's bad for him. Let me ask, What do you live for? Why are you continuing your life on this planet? What will make you not regret on your deathbed? For me, life is a festival. I am here to enjoy all the attractions. The scrumptious food, the unforgettable experiences, and the thrilling rides. But nowadays I am realizing that a big part/joy of the festival is bringing other people…

Good luck with that. Speaking only for myself, but finally teaching myself how to avoid that kind of messianic thinking has been a considerable benefit to me in my old age.

I am so sorry.

Maybe when I grow older (I am just 21), I will become more "realistic" and altruism will not make me happy. This is a sad possibility.

But I have met quite a few people much, much older than I am (40-70 years old) who are happy changing the world for the better.

You only live once, why not set the bar high? That is how they approach the world. Having that sort of "mission" (because it really is a mission, not just a goal or a dream) makes their lives fulfilling and quite inspiring.

They think about what they will do when they grow up, when they are 60, or 90.

To me, they have much more youth to them than some of my friends who have already lost their dreams.

I have no idea, because I am so young still, but seeing people like that makes me think: age really is just a number.

Re: Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

#127

Post by khedoros »

avindroth wrote: post #55
st3v3r wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except in your example, John isn't being honest. He's being an asshole. Far too many people conflate the two.

He is being completely honest. Which is what the article espoused. The article also said do not hide your emotions. John is mad about the fact that his friend is wasting his life. I displayed that. If you are defining honest as some midpoint between a white lie and an asshole, then what is being honest? Not being completely honest, but just somewhat honest? Then your "honest" is a healthy mix of white lie and complet…

> If you are defining honest as some midpoint between a white lie and an asshole, then what is being honest?

Honesty is an endpoint, with the other side being dishonesty (including lies). On a separate axis, you would have maybe "gentleness of communication". On a third axis, orthogonal to the first two, you might have "intent", ranging from benevolent to malevolent.

So, complete honesty would be a plane. Some parts of the plane are difficult to reach (completely honest, completely gentle, completely benevolent), and may be impossible depending on the situation (timing, your relationship with the person, etc), and your own skills of communication.

"Asshole" would be a cloud within that volume, mostly floating around where "malevolence" and "harshness" have high values. None of these things are binary values, though. The soft edges fade into each other; we're working with shades of grey.

Re: Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

#128

Post by Retra »

CPLX wrote: post #121
avindroth wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jack responds, "I know... Jack knows it's bad for him. Let me ask, What do you live for? Why are you continuing your life on this planet? What will make you not regret on your deathbed? For me, life is a festival. I am here to enjoy all the attractions. The scrumptious food, the unforgettable experiences, and the thrilling rides. But nowadays I am realizing that a big part/joy of the festival is bringing other people…

Good luck with that. Speaking only for myself, but finally teaching myself how to avoid that kind of messianic thinking has been a considerable benefit to me in my old age.

How do you know you just didn't get bored with your old ideals and just moved onto some new thing? "I'm older than you" has never been a convincing argument, and the fact that you're bringing it up seems to indicate that you think it should have some moral weight that it does not.

Re: Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

#129

Post by Retra »

matwood wrote: post #62
avindroth wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay. Let's take an example from the article. Be transparent, honest, and authentic. Do not ever waiver from this; white lies and false smiles quickly snowball into a life lived out of alignment. Let's say John is this guy who is "transparent, honest, and authentic, and never waivering." And say Jack, John's friend, is addicted to playing Overwatch. John comes by and says, "Jack, you shouldn't play Overwatch. You are…

You can be honest without being an asshole. This is related to people who win arguments as assholes. Sure they won, but they pissed everyone off so what does it matter? Then they go hide behind "I'm just being honest." No, that's being an asshole. There is saying, "you can shear a sheep over and over, but you can only skin it once." Learn to shear.

>You can be honest without being an asshole.

Not always. It depends on the culture. Some people will think you're an asshole just for disagreeing with them. Some people will think you're an asshole because you smile crooked. Some people will think you're an asshole because you aren't speaking their language and using their terminology.

Maybe I think you're an asshole just for suggesting this.

Re: Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

#130

Post by tdkl »

avindroth wrote: post #124
tdkl wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Loved that book, it's quite an eye opener.

Same, had a feeling you read that book haha. The Way of the Superior Man by David Deida is a great follow-up. The guru stuff is sometimes overwhelming, but there are good ideas in that book. There is also a fantastic summary/teaser of the book on FightMediocrity (YouTube channel).

Hehe, read that one too, even before No more Mr. Nice guy.

It's one of those that's hard to grasp, more of a lifetime read, when you gather more and more experiences, so that the suggestions make more sense.

Those two books, "Models" by Mark Manson and "Slight edge" by Jeff Olson probably changed my life the most.

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