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I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

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Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#271
post #212
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [P]eople complain they are not compensated enough relative to the importance of their work, their intelligence, the hours put in, their title or the length of their education or the risk they take. Most developers would be wise to understand that with few exceptions, none of these things have anything to do with your compensation. Your compensation is based almost entirely on some amorphous combination of: A) Suppl…

Perhaps patronage covers this, but I would put skill at office politics/ass kissing high on the list.

Also known as: "Works well with others."

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, no teacher I have ever known has stopped working at 3:20 PM. Grading and planning often go far into the evening.

Additionally, no teacher I have ever known has had the summer off. Summer is when they do catch-up work, lesson planning, etc., the technical debt payback of the teaching world. (source: three parents/step-parents were school teachers)

In all careers, some people are martyrs unnecessarily. Yes, there's a bit of prep work needed right before the next school year depending on what classes they have for the following year, but except that last week, the time's free if they want it to be.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe in the Valley startup culture but I live very far from the Valley and that's not even close to my experience at all. What kind of "physical strain" does typing code result in? I seriously have one of the most flexible and lowest stress job than anyone I know.

Sitting in one position while making only minute movements and staring at a screen causes significant strain if you don't balance it out with exercise.

Call me a fanboy, but my Apple Watch's hourly reminders to get up and walk around have helped immensely.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But don't you know that software developers are the best and most noble population in the world, bravely suffering for the good of humanity? I would love someone to try and complain about RSI to someone who's been a construction worker for 20 years. "But you get fresh air and exercise!" Ha! According to this source, 8.2% of construction workers have carpal tunnel: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4476336/…

Exactly. Actual construction work == Moldy crawlspaces. Hot attics. Slippery roofs. Muddy trenches. Asbestos & fiberglass dust (yay for silicon fibrosis!). Lead paint. pneumatic paint sprayers, heavy equipment, nail guns, projection injuries, cuts/scrapes/falls/broken bones, temperature range extremes, noise (hearing loss), eye injury due to projectiles, etc. etc. Run a belt sander for an hour. Numb hands for the nex…

I removed this from my (grand)parent post, since it was irrelevant, but since we're here:

I had to help with dad's business every school break from age 13-21. Mainly renovation, a spec home, some sheds, rarely roofing. Small town stuff. I'm sure I was a terrible worker, but it was shocking and alienating that my first job out of college I made triple what my dad did. And maybe from my own children I will hear comments like these in this thread, which I think are a bit disconnected from the reality of labor.

And I guess that's fine, just don't quit programming for construction if you are trying to avoid injury. My dad is in great shape in terms of cardio and strength for 60, but he can't raise his shoulder, or move some fingers, but the overall joint pain isn't bad most days, and he thinks he's gotten off pretty lucky. If he had fallen off that scaffold slightly differently when I was 5, he might be dead.

Also, another small satisfaction is if you can get the radio tuned to a good station, and do something straightforward, like, uh, nailing a subfloor or something. You can just sort of get into a groove with good music or interesting talk and have your day fly by, whereas I mainly get nothing done with the radio on while programming.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I ask, are you a programmer? My guess is you are not. If you were you would understand the real physical strain and mental toll it takes to be good. If you want to excel, it is a never-ending battle to stay current and there is little to no reward for experience (even though it matters a great deal and must be accomplished on and off the clock). There is limited time to make money before you either burn out or ar…

Maybe in the Valley startup culture but I live very far from the Valley and that's not even close to my experience at all. What kind of "physical strain" does typing code result in? I seriously have one of the most flexible and lowest stress job than anyone I know.

Hmmm, "And if you go in on a Saturday afternoon, I can tell you which start-ups will succeed, without even knowing what they do. Being there on the weekend is a huge indicator of success" - Marissa Mayer

Maybe you can get away with doing just your job and going home to relax. I would wager, you may have difficulty finding your next job however. Have you never programmed so much you start having dreams that it takes steps to breath and you subsequently have a difficult time breathing? The physical toll takes years to manifest. I am in my 30s. If I did not exercise at least every other day I would not be able to continue doing what I do. You are most likely in your early 20s. Wait and see what a lifetime of programming does to your nervous system. I would not be surprised if a study reveals programming causes brain damage.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#277
post #65
post #56

I think it's mostly supply and demand, timing and where you live. But those are the factors we rarely talk about. Instead, people complain they are not compensated enough relative to the importance of their work, their intelligence, the hours put in, their title or the length of their education or the risk they take. If people were paid according to the importance of their jobs, I would argue that plumbers, sewage wo…

Value creation is by far the pre-dominant variable when one thinks about compensation. Arguably, there is more value creation in the process of programming (infinite distribution) than there is in let's say plumbing or some of the other analogies you make here. The more democratized a field is and the more systematic efficiencies there are to be gained, the more easy it will be to both create and capture value and he…

That is what programmers like to say (when they are comparing their salaries with the value they say they have created).

The reality,of course, is that most of the value created is attributable to the franchise value of the company, not the programmer.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Additionally, no teacher I have ever known has had the summer off. Summer is when they do catch-up work, lesson planning, etc., the technical debt payback of the teaching world. (source: three parents/step-parents were school teachers)

Or if you're in Germany, many teachers are running on temporary contracts that always last for the school year, so they will be receiving unemployment benefits during the summer break, and (hopefully!) get a new contract for the next school year. It's a great way to shuffle cost from one government budget (education) to another one (unemployment benefits), and also a convenient way to get rid of annoying parts of the…

Teachers in my mother's district in Virginia also work on a contractual basis. However, they renew their contracts at the end of the school year even though they aren't actually working and getting paid over the summer. As a result, they are technically employed and ineligible for unemployment.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most programmers would be able to do usual plumbing stuff like connecting the sink or dishwasher to water pipes with almost no prior learning, just by looking how things are done, maybe asking a few basic questions at the plumbing supplies store, and reading the attached instructions. These things are no rocket-science really. Sure, an experienced plumber would do all of these things much faster and probably better,…

Perhaps for simple plumbing jobs (like the ones you mention). However, things are rarely so easy once you start actually working. Like with most things, being skilled at plumbing is being able to handle the edge cases. And trust me, plumbing is not fault tolerant. :)

Exactly - you start setting up, then discover a 100 year old shutoff valve, which then breaks off in your hand, or there's mercury in an old heating system, or water leaks appearing 10m away from the source... In both programming and plumbing there's no substitute for years of experience in learning how to handle uncooperative reality.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#280
post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference being, the older you get the more you will be perceived an expert at law. Your experience ages like a fine wine. Experience in tech ages more like a ripe watermelon sitting in the sun. Your earning potential will only go up the longer you are a lawyer. That is not true for those that stay developers their entire career. P.S. I also spent a great deal of time getting degrees. B.S. in computer science an…

Let's see. In 20 years your field might have made large parts of my field redundant. I truly hope so :-) Programming is still a young profession and it's growing at a tremendous pace. The population pyramid of Programmers' Land actually looks like a pyramid which might cause programmers to think that older people can't make it. I know many older folks in IT who are still active. My old man continued until he was 70.…

I think we've lost sight of the argument. I do not disagree that people taking a few months of online courses are being paid well (or above) what they should be earning as a programmer.
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