Live data from Hacker News

I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

hackernoon.com

241–250 of 328 posts

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#241

It's really quite simple: you assume it's all worthless, because that's how it starts and that's how it generally ends. Even if it were going to be worth something, you'd have been better off taking the money up front and investing it however you wanted in the meantime. But it doesn't really matter, because you have no control over this anyway. All you have to do is decide whether the salary is high enough; the rest…

As an employee you can also have a positive effect on the outcome of the company.

So as a non-owner, I am in a great position to give charity to the owners.

No way. I have been screwed often enough by companies that I am no longer going to put in uncompensated additional effort more than once per employer. If I want to do charitable work, there is no shortage of open-source projects out there that would pay in gratitude or reputation.

When I am "at will" in a company with zero actual ownership, I have no interest whatsoever in seeing the company succeed or fail. It makes no difference to me whether the job disappears because the company goes under, or because the CEO doesn't like my face, or because the owners sell out and the new bosses clean house. Any non-cash incentives will have no effect on me until they are actually in my possession. A promise that can be broken without consequence at any moment before the expected delivery date is no promise at all.

As an employee-owner, I can have a positive effect on the outcome of the company. But not once has any of my employers fully upheld any promise related to ownership made at or before hiring. So now all my accounting is by what I have in hand. If what I have is a load of tissue-thin promises that I have no means to enforce, that's great for wiping my backside with. I believe it was put more delicately some time ago as "don't count your chickens before they're hatched," and "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush."

If you can't meaningfully enforce the promise, it is worth nothing. If you have a vesting schedule, and the employer can change it by firing you without cause, it is worth nothing. Analyze your proposed compensation defensively; pretend that the company is out to screw you without you even noticing it, because sometimes they are.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#242
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What's the alternative that doesn't rely on philosopher-kings or omniscient omnibenevolent central planners? Distributed sharing economies, like that of most tribal organizations.

I'd like to see your anthropology cites for "tribal organisations", please. Especially for those larger than a hundred thousand members.

>I'd like to see your anthropology cites for "tribal organisations"

Look at any hunter gatherer tribe.

The key word here is "distributed". Distributed tribes are light weight and mobile by design. So they are rarely ever grouped into concentrations of 100,000+ members except for the occasional festival-like gatherings.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#243

So, I've been working for startups for a long time. Finally I've reached two "rules"- - Be a founder - Restricted Stock Units or Preferred Shares are the only way to go. Options are way slanted against employees. If you have a market value of $150k and you take $80k in salary, you're giving up $70k of real money each year. The value of your options in most situations that work out well (Eg: base hits) are going to be…

I think a main take-away can be: If you're interviewing for a start-up and the founder is cagey about the company's financials, their investors' stakes, their liquidation preference, overall what the cap table looks like, the number of shares outstanding, etc. that should be a big red flag.

A founder should know those things cold.

Also all compensation promised you during interviews should be in place within 60 days of joining. I've seen companies drag their feet for months, only to come up with an option plan significantly worse than the deal that was pitched to you (which the founders and early employees got. And thus you should have got, but they decided to be greedy, and then it took 6 months to come up with a plan.)

"There is only a single liquidation preference" - that's not ideal, but it's ok. "I think there's just one liquidation preference" - that means there are probably two, only one of which is called an LP, and the guy doesn't know terms well enough to avoid getting screwed in a liquidity event.

Of course all of this is less significant than the analysis of whether you think there ever will be a liquidity event or not... but having been around a couple decades and gone thru a couple of them, the founders made out well, even though they got screwed, and the employees didn't make a good risk adjusted return on what they gave up.

Of course, I didn't work for any unicorns. In that case the results are much better.

Problem is that options plans and even employe compensation plans at startups are built to only make sense assuming the company is a unicorn.

Most startups are not unicorns.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The mere fact that many do take summer jobs is proof of that, IMO. Or it's a proof that they need the money.

If I had two months off a year I'd take a summer job at Starbucks or whatever as well yet I don't need the money by any means whatsoever even if I took a prorated pay cut. Hell, I don't need to work at all because my spouse's income is more than enough to live off of very comfortably, but I do. The amount of time I work isn't an indication of the amount of money I need .

The argument in the parent posts is that teachers actually don't have two month off. They just have two month where they don't have to do client (that is pupil) - facing work to do.

Teachers actually need to cram a lot in that time. All the preparation for next year, all self-education they need to do to stay up-to-date, select reading and learning materials. Planning the curriculum etc. The equivalent to all that work that freelancers factor into their daily rate and all the work that employees often do on the job ("I'll need to read the documentation so I know how to properly do that", "I'll google it", ...).

The fact that they still take on summer jobs on top of that can serve as an indicator that they actually don't have too much to do in that time or it can serve as an indicator that they need the money more than their time off.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#245
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The mere fact that many do take summer jobs is proof of that, IMO. Or it's a proof that they need the money.

It's only proof that they desire more money or can find a use for more money. "Need" is an overloaded term. I know developers with six figure salaries who feel like they "need" more money and occasionally do contract work on the side as a result.

By that argument nobody needs any money. Why pay rent when you can have https://primitivetechnology.wordpress.com/. Why pay for groceries when https://primitivetechnology.wordpress.com/2016/05/20/sweet-p... feeds you just as well? We just "desire it"

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#246
post #56

I think it's mostly supply and demand, timing and where you live. But those are the factors we rarely talk about. Instead, people complain they are not compensated enough relative to the importance of their work, their intelligence, the hours put in, their title or the length of their education or the risk they take. If people were paid according to the importance of their jobs, I would argue that plumbers, sewage wo…

One thing I want to mention is related to your last line: > Programmers in 2016 are generally very well compensated for a low risk, indoor job with a very low barrier to entry. Most employers don't get it, but Google, Facebook, and others do; programming well has a much higher barrier to entry than people realize. When I was 10 I could make an HTML page, when I was 14 I started incorporating JavaScript and building w…

"> programming well has a much higher barrier to entry than people realize."

"Yet there are people making the same salary as me that literally started programing 4 months ago."

That certainly sounds like a low barrier to entry to me. Compare with the barrier to entry to becoming a doctor, for instance. There, in many locations, you'll be looking at a decade of proving yourself to the club, with hundreds of thousands of dollars in costs to do that, before you are even allowed to start working. Four weeks, and maybe a computer that costs hundreds of dollars, is absolutely nothing in comparison.

> this is why some developers think (and probably should) get paid more. Relative to their co-workers if they can make half as many mistakes they save time both upfront, and bug catching.

But it still boils down to supply an demand, and if employers do not demand those with better bug fixing ability, there is going to be no corresponding premium for finding such people. What your post does indicate to me is that programmers have done a poor job of marketing the importance of bug fixing ability (or whatever features of an experienced developer you think is important) so that employers start demanding the subset of developers who have those skills.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#247
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What's the alternative that doesn't rely on philosopher-kings or omniscient omnibenevolent central planners? Distributed sharing economies, like that of most tribal organizations.

How do those systems manage capital-intensive projects? Bridges and dams and airliners and power grids and so on...

>How do those systems manage capital-intensive projects?

The use of the word "capital" here indicates a misunderstanding of the social dynamics of tribal economies.

They produce and consume that which they need together because of shared benefit.

Large scale centralized constructions like the Golden Gate Bridge, the Hoover Dam, or power grids are built to serve the stationary needs of the big city not the small, distributed, mobile tribe.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a main take-away can be: If you're interviewing for a start-up and the founder is cagey about the company's financials, their investors' stakes, their liquidation preference, overall what the cap table looks like, the number of shares outstanding, etc. that should be a big red flag.

A founder should know those things cold. Also all compensation promised you during interviews should be in place within 60 days of joining. I've seen companies drag their feet for months, only to come up with an option plan significantly worse than the deal that was pitched to you (which the founders and early employees got. And thus you should have got, but they decided to be greedy, and then it took 6 months to com…

Yep, I've worked for quite a few companies, some offering real stock and others offering options, and I've only ever made any money (and only a very, very small amount) with real stock. Unless you're in one of those rare unicorns, your options are likely worthless.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#249
post #122
post #107

Honestly what's wrong with just paying people a lot of cash? Why the swindling with securities? Because that's all it is -- look at a 10 year timespan between two developers, one making cash and one making cash+options, and you will see a difference in how much they take home. Stock options are all smoke and mirrors, nine times out of ten. I'm all for giving people more financial opportunities that integrate with the…

>Honestly what's wrong with just paying people a lot of cash? The context of the blog post is "startups". Startups without significant revenue don't have a lot of cash to pay high salaries. Another reason for stock compensation is to tap into the power of incentives. Hopefully, the potential equity upside attracts employees who think their work contributions can boost the value of the company (and hence their stock o…

So what if there is a lack of cash? Keep demanding more.

If and when the cash comes, will your real salary increase? No! Of course not!

You will be the last to know and this information asymmetry is the reason the rules are stacked against you, which is why you should never stop asking for more money. If the company tanks then so what? Not your problem, you're a developer.

The premise of my argument is that the separation between the two groups you mentioned is so temporary that it doesn't even matter -- and not only that but whether you're a mercenary is not up to you, it's up to your employer. You might as well get paid fairly to reduce your risk surface.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#250
post #56

I think it's mostly supply and demand, timing and where you live. But those are the factors we rarely talk about. Instead, people complain they are not compensated enough relative to the importance of their work, their intelligence, the hours put in, their title or the length of their education or the risk they take. If people were paid according to the importance of their jobs, I would argue that plumbers, sewage wo…

Compensation is a market. It's not about what you "deserve" or how smart you are, or even your job performance. Your comp is driven by what the market will bear, in other words "what you can make elsewhere." Just like the price of a gadget is not based on the cost of its parts, or how much value the customer derives from it. It's based on what the market will bear.
Post reply on HN