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I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

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Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#121

Post by pkolaczk »

rimantas wrote: post #114
flexie wrote: post #56

I think it's mostly supply and demand, timing and where you live. But those are the factors we rarely talk about. Instead, people complain they are not compensated enough relative to the importance of their work, their intelligence, the hours put in, their title or the length of their education or the risk they take. If people were paid according to the importance of their jobs, I would argue that plumbers, sewage wo…

Not sure aniut the low barrier to entry. Take 1000 programmers, how many can be made into decent plumbers in 6 months? Now take 1000 plumbers, how many can be made ibto decent programmers in 6 months? Also, I am nit aware how often tevhnology materials and tooling changes for plumbers (I guess some of these spsn generations), but I am aware that platform I have been working full time for 4 years did not exist 8 years…

Most programmers would be able to do usual plumbing stuff like connecting the sink or dishwasher to water pipes with almost no prior learning, just by looking how things are done, maybe asking a few basic questions at the plumbing supplies store, and reading the attached instructions. These things are no rocket-science really. Sure, an experienced plumber would do all of these things much faster and probably better, that's why we call them. But the barrier to entry is definitely much lower - that's a no-brainer to me.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#122

Post by jasode »

ihsw wrote: post #107

Honestly what's wrong with just paying people a lot of cash? Why the swindling with securities? Because that's all it is -- look at a 10 year timespan between two developers, one making cash and one making cash+options, and you will see a difference in how much they take home. Stock options are all smoke and mirrors, nine times out of ten. I'm all for giving people more financial opportunities that integrate with the…

>Honestly what's wrong with just paying people a lot of cash?

The context of the blog post is "startups". Startups without significant revenue don't have a lot of cash to pay high salaries.

Another reason for stock compensation is to tap into the power of incentives. Hopefully, the potential equity upside attracts employees who think their work contributions can boost the value of the company (and hence their stock options) rather than mercenaries who just want a paycheck. Paying with 100% cash doesn't easily differentiate those 2 groups.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#123

Post by pkolaczk »

amelius wrote: post #93
flexie wrote: post #56

I think it's mostly supply and demand, timing and where you live. But those are the factors we rarely talk about. Instead, people complain they are not compensated enough relative to the importance of their work, their intelligence, the hours put in, their title or the length of their education or the risk they take. If people were paid according to the importance of their jobs, I would argue that plumbers, sewage wo…

But most programmers are basically plumbers (for data as opposed to water/sewage) :)

Not really. Most programmers I know design systems, not just mechanically program them according to the specs. Plumbers do not design - they just execute designs created by plumbing engineers. And plumbing or mechanical engineers are paid much, much higher (in this region where I live probably not as much as programmers, but close enough).

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#125

Post by riskneural »

Adam Smith's five reasons to get paid more:

1. Skill. Over the long run, jobs that require higher skill will attract higher wages, or else people won't bother to spend the costs acquire the skills for the job.

2. Accountability. All equal, you'll take the job without personal consequences when things go bad.

3. Wholesomeness. Undertakers get paid more. Butchers get paid more than bakers. If it sounds cool at a party, expect to get paid less. Supply and demand.

4. Job security. Essentially, you need a higher wage for an unstable job than a stable job. Risk premium.

5. Physical danger. Yes, a lumberjack will get more danger money than a programmer. However, you'll demand a higher wage for a programming job with crazy hours and the only food in the building is a snack machine with cinnamon buns which have no expiry dates.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#126

Post by ausjke »

"Please talk to a financially savvy individual to avoid missteps that could impact your long-term wealth." -- this strikes me, everything said makes common sense, and most engineers will agree, but the difficult lies in this sentence, how/where to find this resource _easily_ while working 7*24 on startups?

It is extremely difficult to find a real person, or a nice website, to make the ownership/stock-options/shares/etc straightforward and easy to follow, those jargon/terms are made to confuse any ordinary typical person.

I wish there is a website providing such service, say, charge $100 a hour to analyze my financial situation thoroughly or something like that. And no, I'm not saying a financial professional from Fidelity that is trying to sell me some funds.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#127

Post by scandox »

People who care about money will always have trouble understanding people that don't care about money - and vice-versa. (Obviously, the context here is a milieu in which everybody has enough for basic needs.)

It's all about head space. Caring about money is quite a binary thing: once you engage with it, it's a huge commitment - intellectually and emotionally. People who don't care about money understand that they're only inches away from caring - and that the moment they cross that line their whole attitude is going to have to change. That's why they're wilfully disengaged from these issues. They don't want to set that process in motion. Money has a gravity all its own - it sucks you in.

People who do care about money don't have a problem. Money proves its own importance in a very material way. So the commitment always seems justified.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#128

Post by Unklejoe »

pkolaczk wrote: post #121
rimantas wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure aniut the low barrier to entry. Take 1000 programmers, how many can be made into decent plumbers in 6 months? Now take 1000 plumbers, how many can be made ibto decent programmers in 6 months? Also, I am nit aware how often tevhnology materials and tooling changes for plumbers (I guess some of these spsn generations), but I am aware that platform I have been working full time for 4 years did not exist 8 years…

Most programmers would be able to do usual plumbing stuff like connecting the sink or dishwasher to water pipes with almost no prior learning, just by looking how things are done, maybe asking a few basic questions at the plumbing supplies store, and reading the attached instructions. These things are no rocket-science really. Sure, an experienced plumber would do all of these things much faster and probably better,…

While I agree that the barrier to entry is lower, I feel like you may be overestimating the average programmer’s “hands-on” abilities as well as the simplicity of being a plumber. Sure, most programmers have the problem solving skills to get the job done, but when it comes to actually doing it, things are sometimes different. In my own personal experience, only a small percentage of the programmers that I know (myself included) actually know how to turn a wrench, figuratively speaking.

Another example is welding. I know how to weld, but I am not good at it. The only way I would get better is to keep practicing, which I never really have a chance to do since it’s not my day job. This is a slightly more extreme example than plumbing, but a similar concept.

I would consider the usual plumbing stuff to be more along the lines of sweating copper pipes, using lead and oakum to connect cast iron sewage pipes, installing toilet flanges, etc... I feel like connecting a dishwasher is more along the lines of a handy man.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#129

Post by codingdave »

There is a bigger picture than money. I know I could have more wealth. But I'm pretty happy with my life, despite not having maximized my income and investments. I have enough money to pay my bills, enjoy my life, and still have enough extra to have the first-world problem of where to invest it. Would having focused my energies on making even more make me a happier person? Or a better father to my kids? Doubtful.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#130

Post by totally »

I understand that a thing is worth what someone will pay for it, but to balance that out a bit, no conversation about compensation is complete without consideration of actual needs.

When colleagues, whose compensation is as wildly out of proportion to their needs as mine is, complain that they're entitled to more, it's at best a negotiating stance and at worst a black hole of insatiable greed.

Obviously this is some game theory mojo, and we'll never get everyone on board with it, but imagine for a second a world where everyone isn't vying for "more", but for "enough".

In the zero sum game we have here, compensation becomes a moral issue.

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