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I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

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Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#151

Post by _RPM »

olavgg wrote: post #69
flexie wrote: post #56

I think it's mostly supply and demand, timing and where you live. But those are the factors we rarely talk about. Instead, people complain they are not compensated enough relative to the importance of their work, their intelligence, the hours put in, their title or the length of their education or the risk they take. If people were paid according to the importance of their jobs, I would argue that plumbers, sewage wo…

Yes programmers are well compensated, but they are also in very high demand. One day at a big family union I got three phonecalls from recruiters. My whole family rolled their eyes, while I politely said no to those recruiters with below average offers. I told them that this is usual, I get a few phonecalls from recruiters every week. None of them who work as doctors, teachers, accounting, geophysicist, even an old C…

Why do you even empower these people by answering the phone? I never answer when they call.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#152

Post by [deleted] »

flexie wrote: post #56

I think it's mostly supply and demand, timing and where you live. But those are the factors we rarely talk about. Instead, people complain they are not compensated enough relative to the importance of their work, their intelligence, the hours put in, their title or the length of their education or the risk they take. If people were paid according to the importance of their jobs, I would argue that plumbers, sewage wo…

[deleted]

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#153

Post by jazzyk »

cel1ne wrote: post #64
flexie wrote: post #56

I think it's mostly supply and demand, timing and where you live. But those are the factors we rarely talk about. Instead, people complain they are not compensated enough relative to the importance of their work, their intelligence, the hours put in, their title or the length of their education or the risk they take. If people were paid according to the importance of their jobs, I would argue that plumbers, sewage wo…

I would add "police" to the list of critically important yet comically underpaid professions.

Being a policeman can be a tough, dangerous job. But I don't think they are underpaid, at least not in Massachusetts - Police Trooper, 1st class can make $130K-$180K. They also get generous pensions (state employees).

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#154

Post by pc86 »

flexie wrote: post #56

I think it's mostly supply and demand, timing and where you live. But those are the factors we rarely talk about. Instead, people complain they are not compensated enough relative to the importance of their work, their intelligence, the hours put in, their title or the length of their education or the risk they take. If people were paid according to the importance of their jobs, I would argue that plumbers, sewage wo…

> [P]eople complain they are not compensated enough relative to the importance of their work, their intelligence, the hours put in, their title or the length of their education or the risk they take.

Most developers would be wise to understand that with few exceptions, none of these things have anything to do with your compensation. Your compensation is based almost entirely on some amorphous combination of:

  A) Supply of similarly skilled labor (if enough similarly skilled devs are happy to do the work for $80k that gives you a ceiling)
  B) Supply of less skilled labor (if an army of unskilled devs are happy to do the work for $8/hr ...)
  C) Your leverage over your [prospective] employer
  D) How the company has done over the last *n* quarters
  E) Patronage
  F) Nepotism
  G) Luck
I know I'm just repeating most of what you said.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#155

Post by alanwatts »

pjc50 wrote: post #70
jondubois wrote: post #53

Finance is evil. Day trading, investment banking, venture capital; they don't produce anything for society, they just sit at the intersection of various people, companies and industries and they capture big chunks of the money that flows between them - They rely on information asymmetry and market manipulation to do so; but 'information asymmetry' is just a euphemism for 'deception'. Even startups which are doing wel…

Finance is bad, but it's kind of a least-worst situation. What's the alternative that doesn't rely on philosopher-kings or omniscient omnibenevolent central planners?

>What's the alternative that doesn't rely on philosopher-kings or omniscient omnibenevolent central planners?

Distributed sharing economies, like that of most tribal organizations.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#156

Post by minipci1321 »

gaius wrote: post #96
amelius wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But most programmers are basically plumbers (for data as opposed to water/sewage) :)

Not true. Plumbers work reasonable hours, are paid overtime, don't have to deal with ageism, their skills stay relevant regardless of fashion trends, and their jobs will never be offshored.

> Plumbers work reasonable hours, are paid overtime,

Indeed, over here many I talked to refused to do more than 8 hours a day. I didn't understand until... -- ever tried to do a hard physical work several days in a row? How about the entire life?

> don't have to deal with ageism

But have to deal with knee joints and back pains. Don't underestimate the joy of physical work at an advanced age.

> their skills stay relevant regardless of fashion trends

Old ones refuse to service modern equipment, say "I am a plumber, not an electrician". Admittedly, probably because they have got enough pure-plumbing work to do as it is.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#157

Post by exelius »

In a capitalist system, you actually have an obligation to get as much of the pie as you can. Fuck being seen as greedy; greed is the entire basis of capitalism. This doesn't mean resorting to illegal / unethical measures; but it does mean always negotiating to get a better deal. This goes from the top of the economy all the way down to the bottom. I'll admit it can be hard when you don't have leverage; but you also have a stronger incentive to fight than some VC or PE who is really just playing for points.

More companies should really encourage this with their employees and arm them with the information they need to negotiate effectively. True; compensation would probably rise, but so would job satisfaction (and its attendant effect on employee turnover -- important in knowledge work where recruiting costs run upwards of $60,000-100,000 per hire). It's probably a wash in the end dollars-wise, but it makes it a lot easier to keep high-performing teams together.

If you don't want to be greedy, give all your money away to whatever charities you want after you earn it and live a modest lifestyle. But the whole system functions better when everyone has the ability -- and the expectation -- to fight for the best deal they can get.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#158

Post by lgieron »

mamon wrote: post #116
billmalarky wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What about the risk of work injuries faced by construction workers every day. That's real risk. I hear you, but the negative health effects of working insane hours developing in a high stress "start-up" environment for many years should not be understated.

Exactly, in fact I think that if you want to stay healthy then working as a construction worker is great: you get physical excercise, fresh air, low stress level. Risk of injury is pretty low, and wages are pretty good. In contrast, being software developer will probably get you heart attack, or problems with your spine, or eyes, or hands or all of the above.

> Exactly, in fact I think that if you want to stay healthy then working as a construction worker is great: you get physical excercise, fresh air, low stress level. Risk of injury is pretty low, and wages are pretty good.

There's a pretty significant risk of DEATH (guys falling off from scaffolding, someone accidentally driving over you with an excavator etc.), you need to be on your toes a lot of the time or you'll hurt yourself, you work in heat, in cold, in dusty or moldy environments, in noise, with chemicals. On top of that, your boss is often an asshole (there's none of the white collar world politeness). Consider that construction work can pay pretty well even to people who hardly speak the country's language and have only moderate skills - I think it's largely because it's just shit.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#159

Post by wschroed »

billmalarky wrote: post #106
flexie wrote: post #56

I think it's mostly supply and demand, timing and where you live. But those are the factors we rarely talk about. Instead, people complain they are not compensated enough relative to the importance of their work, their intelligence, the hours put in, their title or the length of their education or the risk they take. If people were paid according to the importance of their jobs, I would argue that plumbers, sewage wo…

> What about the risk of work injuries faced by construction workers every day. That's real risk. I hear you, but the negative health effects of working insane hours developing in a high stress "start-up" environment for many years should not be understated.

Hubris: http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-dangerous-jobs/

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#160

Post by nilkn »

flexie wrote: post #56

I think it's mostly supply and demand, timing and where you live. But those are the factors we rarely talk about. Instead, people complain they are not compensated enough relative to the importance of their work, their intelligence, the hours put in, their title or the length of their education or the risk they take. If people were paid according to the importance of their jobs, I would argue that plumbers, sewage wo…

I think there's truth here, but I also think programmers routinely underestimate the quality and compensation of other careers that they think are "below" them.

For instance, you did it in this very post. Do you really think that all high school teachers are locked into making $40k for life? Here where I live (a large city, but also a pretty affordable one), teachers start at ~$55k in base salary, get a whole range of benefits including a pension plan, actually really do have the summers off (plus numerous other breaks), and leave work at 3:20 PM every day. If you were to have them work year-round and go home at 6-7PM and convert the pension plan into salary, the salary would easily exceed that of most entry-level engineers across all disciplines in the area. When I graduated college, I had engineering friends being offered salaries in the $60-70k range for considerably less stable jobs, much longer hours, virtually no time off, and much fewer benefits.

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