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I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

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Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#61

Post by crasp »

flexie wrote: post #56

I think it's mostly supply and demand, timing and where you live. But those are the factors we rarely talk about. Instead, people complain they are not compensated enough relative to the importance of their work, their intelligence, the hours put in, their title or the length of their education or the risk they take. If people were paid according to the importance of their jobs, I would argue that plumbers, sewage wo…

There are always jobs that are worse in some way. If a plumber screws up you might get a wet floor or sewage in the street. If some banking software makes a flaw, you can't just pick up a mop and clean it up.

There are always jobs that come out worse in some category compared to programming. The problem here specifically is that given you have written 50% of the software people are using and investors are making some millions out of it while you make $40K a year, because they sort of lured you into a deal that apparently is not working out too great for you because you were so focussed on getting the lines of code rolling out they sort of took advantage of the situation?

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#62

Post by grinnbearit »

jondubois wrote: post #53

Finance is evil. Day trading, investment banking, venture capital; they don't produce anything for society, they just sit at the intersection of various people, companies and industries and they capture big chunks of the money that flows between them - They rely on information asymmetry and market manipulation to do so; but 'information asymmetry' is just a euphemism for 'deception'. Even startups which are doing wel…

Finance isn't evil; day trading, investment banking, venture capital are all sharing information with the world and trying to move money to places where its more valuable.

There is a case to be made about "negative externalities"[1] but talking about the whole of finance as unnecessary is throwing out the baby with the bath water.

[1] costs that aren't borne by the producer

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#63

Post by manuelflara »

flexie wrote: post #56

I think it's mostly supply and demand, timing and where you live. But those are the factors we rarely talk about. Instead, people complain they are not compensated enough relative to the importance of their work, their intelligence, the hours put in, their title or the length of their education or the risk they take. If people were paid according to the importance of their jobs, I would argue that plumbers, sewage wo…

I totally agree. Being a developer is one of the best careers you can have right now. Well paid and high in demand everywhere in the world, very little "soul crushing" (and can even be very fulfilling) compared to most jobs and you can even get a job where you work from home, anywhere you want, with flexible time etc. What other jobs exist out there like it? And if your only complaint is "well my employer makes millions off me and I get only get paid $GOOD_SALARY!", well then go and start your own business! It's, again, the easiest, cheapest and highest possible return of any business you can start in the world today, and it only requires your time. If you don't want do do it (because you'd rather have a stable job, or you don't want or can't risk your savings, etc) at the very least, don't complain you should be making an even better salary. Keep in mind I don't want to imply "just be contempt with whatever salary you have" or "never seek a better job or salary", but by all means, don't complain that "programmers are underpaid" in general, because I think that's just plain not true if we compare all aspects of the job with any job out there. It's pretty much a dream time in history to be a developer right now.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#64

Post by cel1ne »

flexie wrote: post #56

I think it's mostly supply and demand, timing and where you live. But those are the factors we rarely talk about. Instead, people complain they are not compensated enough relative to the importance of their work, their intelligence, the hours put in, their title or the length of their education or the risk they take. If people were paid according to the importance of their jobs, I would argue that plumbers, sewage wo…

I would add "police" to the list of critically important yet comically underpaid professions.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#65

Post by sidi »

flexie wrote: post #56

I think it's mostly supply and demand, timing and where you live. But those are the factors we rarely talk about. Instead, people complain they are not compensated enough relative to the importance of their work, their intelligence, the hours put in, their title or the length of their education or the risk they take. If people were paid according to the importance of their jobs, I would argue that plumbers, sewage wo…

Value creation is by far the pre-dominant variable when one thinks about compensation. Arguably, there is more value creation in the process of programming (infinite distribution) than there is in let's say plumbing or some of the other analogies you make here.

The more democratized a field is and the more systematic efficiencies there are to be gained, the more easy it will be to both create and capture value and hence, resulting in a more even playing field for expected compensations. This has historically been true for entrepreneurship, modern-day programming is also a good example of this effect.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#66

Post by developer2 »

20yrs_no_equity wrote: post #22
marssaxman wrote: post #6

It's really quite simple: you assume it's all worthless, because that's how it starts and that's how it generally ends. Even if it were going to be worth something, you'd have been better off taking the money up front and investing it however you wanted in the meantime. But it doesn't really matter, because you have no control over this anyway. All you have to do is decide whether the salary is high enough; the rest…

If it's worthless, and you're taking below a market salary, and you're working much harder than you would have to at a company paying you that market salary... then you're getting a raw deal. Better to get the market salary for a 50 hour a week job and do your own startup on the side as a side project. The thing is, early employees (first 1-4 years) put in as much effort and take as much risk as founders, and take a…

>> Options do have a calculable value, if you can determine the risk of failure for the company.

Yes, because every company that has ever failed was predetermined to be a failure long before they went out of business. Give me a break. I've watched companies of varying sizes do extremely well for several years, which then fall apart into ashes in a matter of a month or two. You can't assign value to options unless you are in the process of cashing them out.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#67

Post by wccrawford »

>I find this lack of diligence infuriating. These intellectuals — much smarter than me — imagine block chain technology for cryptocurrencies and how to cure diseases, but don’t put in the effort to comprehend ownership percentages or what a ratchet means in a down round. Why?

Nice victim-blaming here. Why don't people spend tons of effort on a lot more things? They haven't got the time and don't want the stress. Don't blame them for being trusting, loving souls. Blame the company for screwing them over with over-complicated rewards schemes designed to screw them from the start.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#68

Post by pjc50 »

mosselman wrote: post #41

Misleading title and premise: The author makes it seem as if something will be explained for people who are not 'financially-savvy', but nothing is explained. In fact it is made more complex. Which is fine, but still it was kind of misleading. Solid advice to get financial advice nonetheless. Can someone explain this part to my/some-of-us like I am five?: "Which muppets advised them to spend hard-earned cash to exerc…

The point he's making is that if that's part of your compensation, and you don't understand it, then you might as well be being paid in magic beans.

Options have a much higher "total cost of understanding" than regular compensation, and understanding liquidity and volatility is part of that.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#69

Post by olavgg »

flexie wrote: post #56

I think it's mostly supply and demand, timing and where you live. But those are the factors we rarely talk about. Instead, people complain they are not compensated enough relative to the importance of their work, their intelligence, the hours put in, their title or the length of their education or the risk they take. If people were paid according to the importance of their jobs, I would argue that plumbers, sewage wo…

Yes programmers are well compensated, but they are also in very high demand.

One day at a big family union I got three phonecalls from recruiters. My whole family rolled their eyes, while I politely said no to those recruiters with below average offers. I told them that this is usual, I get a few phonecalls from recruiters every week. None of them who work as doctors, teachers, accounting, geophysicist, even an old CEO of a $200 mill company has ever experienced something like that. They may get a recruiter calling once a year.

Most programmers don't know their real value and way too many say yes to work below average market rate. Younger ones a often preferred as they are easier to manipulate, have no idea about their value, and hardly ever says no to something. And they are brilliant and smart for bargain.

What they lack is experience, but as the technology landscape changes every second year many believe experience doesn't matter. That may be why so many companies are struggling with technical debt.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#70

Post by pjc50 »

jondubois wrote: post #53

Finance is evil. Day trading, investment banking, venture capital; they don't produce anything for society, they just sit at the intersection of various people, companies and industries and they capture big chunks of the money that flows between them - They rely on information asymmetry and market manipulation to do so; but 'information asymmetry' is just a euphemism for 'deception'. Even startups which are doing wel…

Finance is bad, but it's kind of a least-worst situation. What's the alternative that doesn't rely on philosopher-kings or omniscient omnibenevolent central planners?
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