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American truck drivers could lose their jobs to robots

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Re: American truck drivers could lose their jobs to robots

#131

The other question you need to ask in order to understand this future scenerio:. Shipping costs will significantly decrease, what will consumers and shareholders spend the extra money on? Who knows what they will spend the extra money on, could be healthcare, boats, TVs, whatever. But new jobs will be created in these expanded industries. It really, really bothers me the constant "x technology will drive x people out…

The difference though is that the changes are happening at a rapid pace. It used to happen across generations so people could adapt but now things happen at a pace that you cannot guarantee what you started at will still be needed in 5-10 years time.

Re: American truck drivers could lose their jobs to robots

#132

The other question you need to ask in order to understand this future scenerio:. Shipping costs will significantly decrease, what will consumers and shareholders spend the extra money on? Who knows what they will spend the extra money on, could be healthcare, boats, TVs, whatever. But new jobs will be created in these expanded industries. It really, really bothers me the constant "x technology will drive x people out…

32% of working age Americans aren't working. This number will rise

Re: American truck drivers could lose their jobs to robots

#133

I bet developers will start to lose jobs to AI. Maybe before truck drivers do. The reaction here on HN will be something to behold.

There's no doubt that some programmer's jobs will start to disappear. Think about how many web devs/ html jockeys are no longer needed because word press or 100 other web publishing platforms are easy enough for non pgmrs to use. How long will a million programmers write custom software instead of just packaging apps? Today, places like Microsoft, Apple, Facebook, Amazon have a lot of programmers writing custom apps. And lots of other companies - eventually I think we'll need fewer of them. Maybe as a software engineer, I could be retrained to do genetic engineering or dna analysis. But it's a lot easier for me than the guy making hamburgers at McDonalds.

I don't want anyone to lose their job, but this change of reduced labor based work is inevitable. Economic forces are hard to overcome. Just like coal has been wiped out by cheap natural gas - it wasn't a conspiracy.

Re: American truck drivers could lose their jobs to robots

#134

I bet developers will start to lose jobs to AI. Maybe before truck drivers do. The reaction here on HN will be something to behold.

It's already happened. Those AIs are called compilers. Compilers get more powerful every year. If you took them away, there aren't enough people on the planet to do the same job with assemblers.

Brilliant comment! I guess devs are lucky to have enough jobs left to work.

Re: American truck drivers could lose their jobs to robots

#135
post #2

> 1.8 million American truck drivers ... well-paying working-class jobs Those two items right there are exactly why they are being automated (in addition to additional efficiencies and cost reductions). If companies can eliminate those costs, they will if there's a way to do so. That is the unfortunate reality. What to do about the aftermath that affects actual people and families as pay is reduced or eventually elim…

> If companies can eliminate those costs, they will if there's a way to do so. That is the unfortunate reality.

I have a hard time accepting the reduction in the cost of production as "unfortunate reality". This process is a key element of economic development. Why, at this point in history, is it now 'unfortunate'?

I think there are some very difficult challenges associated with the macro-trends in our global economic system but I'm pretty sure that viewing productivity increases as "unfortunate" isn't very helpful towards dealing with these challenges.

Re: American truck drivers could lose their jobs to robots

#136
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Each are edge cases and nothing which can't be fixed by further work. >The concept that every driver can/will be replaced by an autodrive bot is naive. The premise is that the driver aspect will be removed, the things you mentioned are not strictly what a driver does.

> the things you mentioned are not strictly what a driver does. They are according to the drivers I know. Long haul truckers are not like pilots. They are much more involved with their rigs. They are actually responsible for maintenance. They are the ones talking to the cops when/if they hit an inspection station.

It's not that every single driver will be gone - just a lot of them will be. There used to be a lot of jobs at stables, horse shoe replacement, etc. Today there are a lot of jobs changing oil, mufflers, tune-ups etc, that will go away with the switch to electric cars, but one big truck can carry a lot more freight than a big wagon train, and it needs less human labor. EVs will still need work, they are designed and made by humans (at least for a while, ha ha) so they can break like anything else. But you will need fewer humans probably.

I heard a story on NPR last night where an insurance company was planning for new businesses, because they expect there to be less need for them with less human drivers and a lot fewer accidents. Not next year, but in 10 years.

Just like one truck can do a lot more transportation than a wagon train with 10 hourses. You have some jobs taking care of trucks, but fewer than took care of horse trains. Horses didn't travel as far, so you needed a lot more places for them to stop and feed and water. I think it will hollow out the middle of the us even more. I'm not crazy about that, I'm from that middle of the country that already has continued to hollow out even without robot cars.

Re: American truck drivers could lose their jobs to robots

#137
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Farming and other types of automation that put people out of work in the past used technology to amplify and/or replace physical labor. Now we are learning how to use the general purpose computer to replace mental labor. These are different types of automation that will have fundamentally different effects on society. While we have many examples of new technology replacing physical labor, automation of mental labor i…

I watched the video, and I have to say it had pretty poor arguments. Too many to name, but I think the core is this: If any conceivable software was free, required no human labor, and instantaneous: Would the world be a better or a worse place? (although I'd need to find something else to do) If computers replace doctors, and I get better care for cheaper, aren't I better off? ...If every job was automated, and you c…

The common wisdom of autonomous transportation being lucrative for auto insurance companies may be correct, albeit for some not-so-common reasons.

As an analog to Wirth's law I'd suggest that in the transportation industry, technological advances in mitigating damage risk are offset by increased risk tolerance in seeking higher throughput / lower latency in the transport of goods and people.

So while the absolute accident rate will go down and the number of meatbag casualties will be reduced by automation removing human error, the _severity_ of catastrophic failure damaging _property_ will increase due to the incentives to push more autos through the pipes in less time: extreme tailgating, hyper-dense cargo, excessive velocity, and bountiful heterogeneity.

Really this is about a transition from (mainly) insuring against loss-of-life to (mainly) insuring against destruction-of-property. Of course, humans will still die even in 'negligible' quantities. But an actuary's loss-of-life liability assessment doesn't need to discriminate between fatal blunt trauma and fatal atomization.

Re: American truck drivers could lose their jobs to robots

#138

What then? Progress, perhaps. ::eyeroll:: Disclaimer: In 1997 I was cut off by a semi (in the middle of trying to pass him), who did NOT signal, on a 2 lane road (I-5 in California, speed limit was 85 or so), and ended up entering the ditch and rolling over 8 times and shattered my hand (it's fine now, but it took a while). The driver never stopped. I was lucky to walk away from that one. Sorry, truckers, but your jo…

Trucking is so big because it is far more efficient than trains. Lol trying to just in time your inventory using trains.

This comment, together with its parent, is a nice example of a false-choice. They both are built upon an assumption that there is some sort of total ordering between cargo transportation systems. Trains are better. No trucks are better. No trains are better.

In reality trains and trucks are part of an incredibly complex cargo transportation system in which the most appropriate transportation mode is dependent on the nature of the cargo, the geography of the source and destination, the infrastructure available, the current price of fuel, weather conditions, capacity constraints and on and on and on.

There is no total ordering of efficiency of transportation modes.

Re: American truck drivers could lose their jobs to robots

#139
post #56

The other question you need to ask in order to understand this future scenerio:. Shipping costs will significantly decrease, what will consumers and shareholders spend the extra money on? Who knows what they will spend the extra money on, could be healthcare, boats, TVs, whatever. But new jobs will be created in these expanded industries. It really, really bothers me the constant "x technology will drive x people out…

Farming and other types of automation that put people out of work in the past used technology to amplify and/or replace physical labor. Now we are learning how to use the general purpose computer to replace mental labor. These are different types of automation that will have fundamentally different effects on society. While we have many examples of new technology replacing physical labor, automation of mental labor i…

I can see how the brain vs. brawn distinction could be pernicious, because mechanical robots can do one thing, but a robot that's smart like a human can do anything. Something about that formulation feels like an oversimplification though.

We've had technology replace mental labor before too.[0]

Spreadsheets democratized accounting and while making the work easier, also put a tax prep firm on every corner in the US. It vastly increased the number of people performing some sort of accounting. Some are small business owners that do it themselves, and can now hire a few extra employees.

We've had AI that can write beautiful music for ages, now it can duplicate the style of any composer,[1] but we largely don't care and still have pop stars. And composers.

The work Taylor Swift does for her millions of dollars probably involves layers of cultivating a story about a real person, responding correctly to paparazzi in different scenarios, and judging when to capitalize on interactions on Twitter between other celebrities. This probably sounds like I'm saying she's calculating, but really it has to be an enormous amount of instinct, because it's all probably not reducible to any series of tasks that can be enumerated or even perhaps knowable. Several people have tried to analyze her success, I'm not sure anyone actually understands it.[2][3]

More important for ordinary employees, we still have people compose film scores for some reason. Maybe because even if you can emulate other composers, someone has to decide which composer to emulate, which means having some ability to guess at another artist's as yet unexpressed artistic vision. Once you have the decades of training and experience to do all that, might as well write the thing yourself. Maybe recommendation engines could get there, but I'm not sure those work with novel creations, and I'm not sure we're even interested in perfecting those anymore for areas where they're proven (more or less) to work.[4]

Maybe the weird thing about mental assistants is that they expand the workforce, rather than reducing it. Robots are set up to run automatically, but all the AI we develop is driven by humans to solve day to day problems.

It's like if instead of robotics we built programmable exoskeletons or mechs. The number of employees would explode. There'd still be people building everything, inside the machines. That's what we're doing with computers in a lot of fields. Software is most often like a suit our brain wears to think faster or more reliably.

On the other hand, there are also examples of muscle jobs that haven't yet been perfectly replaced.[5]

The lack of a sewing robot (or ubiquitous clothes folding robots as another commenter mentioned) illustrates that we tend to overgeneralize. Some brawn problems are easy, and some are hard. Same for brain problems. Some problems will stick around, either stubbornly unable to be mechanized, or just not worth the cost.

Also, feedback systems kick in to ensure that labor force participation bounces between reasonable extremes. A lot of the recent downturn in the LFPR can be attributed to retirees.[6] It seems to be leveling off or even heading up again, but regardless the US rate remains well within historical norms.[7]

Sorry this turned out super long and rambly.

[0] http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/02/25/389027988/episo...

[1] http://newatlas.com/creative-artificial-intelligence-compute...

[2] https://blog.longreads.com/2014/07/07/taylor-swift-is-a-musi...

[3] http://www.gq.com/story/taylor-swift-gq-cover-story?currentP...

[4] http://www.slashfilm.com/happened-netflixs-recommendation-en...

[5] http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2016/08/03/488611449/episo...

[6] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-01-19/why-labor-...

[7] http://data.bls.gov/generated_files/graphics/latest_numbers_...

I can't seem to export the BLS page I generated. Basically fully expand the range of this page to see the entire history: http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS11300000

Re: American truck drivers could lose their jobs to robots

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the things you mentioned are not strictly what a driver does. They are according to the drivers I know. Long haul truckers are not like pilots. They are much more involved with their rigs. They are actually responsible for maintenance. They are the ones talking to the cops when/if they hit an inspection station.

It's not that every single driver will be gone - just a lot of them will be. There used to be a lot of jobs at stables, horse shoe replacement, etc. Today there are a lot of jobs changing oil, mufflers, tune-ups etc, that will go away with the switch to electric cars, but one big truck can carry a lot more freight than a big wagon train, and it needs less human labor. EVs will still need work, they are designed and m…

> Today there are a lot of jobs changing oil, mufflers, tune-ups etc, that will go away with the switch to electric cars.

But that isn't much of an issue with big rigs, nor with cars generally. The engine/powertrain isn't a big maintenance item on new cars. Engine internals are a very evolved and reliable bit of kit. It's the other things like brakes, wheels, control systems and electrics are the source of most maintenance costs. Those aren't going away with a shift to electrics. Some things will transfer over (air filtration) and new things will appear (battery systems maintenance) and, looking at teslas, powertrain maintenance will still be a thing.

With autodrive, there will be a host of systems that now need new maintenance. And, given that the driver isn't there to fix the little things on the spot, there may be an increase in demand for mechanics that can travel to locations.

Lastly, any switch to autodrive may radically increase trips to the mechanic. Plenty of cars drive around with engine warning lights on permanently. If you know what the problem is, sometimes you just live with it. Just look at the number of cars with blown headlights. An autodrive system might not be so willing to tolerate faults. We may have to keep the vehicles to a higher standard, increasing maintenance needs. (Also a great day for parts manufacturers.)

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