Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars • Hacker News Board

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#211

Post by spanktheuser » Sun, Aug 07, 2016, 3:42 PM UTC

maxsilver wrote: post #157

superuser2 wrote: post #102

I feel compelled to dissent against initiatives to directly take cars off the road, rather than improve alternatives. Growing up in the suburbs without a car, I was really excited about carless urban life. Then I actually experienced it (Hyde Park, Chicago). I'm on the opposite corner of the neighborhood from the business districts, so a little errand like CVS or the grocery store is around half an hour by foot each…

>I feel compelled to dissent against initiatives to directly take cars off the road, rather than improve alternatives. I was really excited about carless urban life. Then I actually experienced it (Hyde Park, Chicago). And you have the experience of using transit on what's generally considered a Top-5 system nationally! The transit experience elsewhere is often significantly worse than yours. We have "urbanists" here…

Chicago's transit system is top five because the rest of North American is terrible - not because it's a wonderful system. It's designed to move people between one central work district (the loop) and their neighborhood or suburb. That's it. It can't be compared to systems like NYC, London, Paris, Barcelona etc. To be fair, Chicago, while populous, only has a few neighborhoods that match the density of those cities, making light urban rail in particular much less feasible.

When I lived carless in Chicago (2001 - 2006) it was only possible if you were childless and lived in a small number of densely populated north side neighborhoods (which does not include Hyde Park). Interestingly, the car sharing services are changing this — cabs generally avoided anything but same wealthy, dense neighborhoods. Uber and Lyft serve much more broadly. Anecdotally, in my neighborhood, the number of cars with a Lyft or Uber sign is astronomical - I once counted traffic for 30 minutes and 43% of vehicles that passed my residence had a car sharing sign in the window.

Between long-haul, low-friction car hiring services (Zipcar) and short-trip, low-friction car hiring services (Uber, Lyft) I think carless urban life in Chicago is vastly extended to everyone with a good paycheck and no children.

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#212

Post by mamon » Sun, Aug 07, 2016, 3:44 PM UTC

vasilipupkin wrote: post #203

barrkel wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you even read what I said? I directly refuted your argument! Your suggestion is both politically difficult and would damage cities by decreasing the very thing that makes them cities: the time proximity between people!

You don't have to eliminate parking at all to achieve this. All you have to do is shift city taxation towards taxing parking more in relative terms. Encourage people to use existing public transportation more

>> All you have to do is shift city taxation towards taxing parking more

And that's exactly what's wrong with this idea: in a democratic society such taxation changes would be temoporary at best - people would just vote for politicians that would change it back during the next elections.

On the other hand, gradualy increasing quality of public transportation by investing more money in it would be something that noone would protest against, and once public transportation is equaly or more convenient than car travel people would switch on their own.

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#213

Post by sctb » Sun, Aug 07, 2016, 3:58 PM UTC

jomamaxx wrote: post #164

thesauri wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also - they don't have horrific winters in which walking/biking is a pain. As someone living in the Nordics, that's news to me.

"> Also - they don't have horrific winters in which walking/biking is a pain. As someone living in the Nordics, that's news to me" A) Biking when there is snow on the ground is not something most people want to do. B) Nordics have pussy winters ... you're on the water and it's fairly mild. I'm from Canada where we have real winters buddy. Weeks of -30C, blizzards, often snow up to your waist. Not only is it 'very unc…

Please comment civilly and substantively here or not at all.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#214

Post by grok2 » Sun, Aug 07, 2016, 3:59 PM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #204

CalRobert wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too many people fail to realize that the parking we have now is largely due to developers being forced to add it by law, and not because the market demanded it. Your parking spot can add 30-50k to the cost of a unit. That really stings if you're told you have to have "free" parking in your apartment, when it really just means higher rents. Some good reading on the matter: http://www.portlandoregon.gov/bps/article/420…

There is a reasonable other side to this: when developers don't build parking but people still feel a need to have cars, tenants end up parking on the street. At any reasonable level of density there are more cars associated with a building than the curb space it occupies, so parking spills over all around the neighborhood. Removing minimum parking requirements is reasonable, but it should be done in such a way that…

In addition to making surrounding streets no-parking perhaps there should be some assurance of public transit nearby? If not, no one is going to rent or buy in that location -- if they can't have cars and they can't use transit easily, then the location becomes unattractive. Question is -- can the local government ensure that?

I think one thing everyone is missing is that having the freedom to have cars has an economic benefit that is not easily factored in otherwise. Like in this example, if the location makes in more difficult to have cars, then it's likely that the rents here will have to be lower to attract people. Or in the other example where someone was car-less in Chicago's Hyde Park area -- over a period of time he seems to have optimized to reduce going out because it was a chore. Maybe that is a good thing in the long run :-), but it sort of indicates depressed economic benefits for everyone.

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#215

Post by Drdrdrq » Sun, Aug 07, 2016, 4:00 PM UTC

ethanbond wrote: post #144

superuser2 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>no one entity has the power to devise nor enforce a holistic solution Yes there is - the city government that controls the parking spaces, also controls the transit system.

And it controls infinite amounts of money? As I've said in other comments, I'm all for investing heavily in transit infrastructure. If you want a solution that totally ignores the fiscal reality of the world, then yes, I agree, dumping massive amounts of money into public transit would be part of it.

Start charging for privilege of driving / parking / owning a car and you can invest the money in better infrastructure. Not that it's a popular solution with the voters, but it is fiscally sound.

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#216

Post by CalRobert » Sun, Aug 07, 2016, 5:00 PM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #204

CalRobert wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too many people fail to realize that the parking we have now is largely due to developers being forced to add it by law, and not because the market demanded it. Your parking spot can add 30-50k to the cost of a unit. That really stings if you're told you have to have "free" parking in your apartment, when it really just means higher rents. Some good reading on the matter: http://www.portlandoregon.gov/bps/article/420…

There is a reasonable other side to this: when developers don't build parking but people still feel a need to have cars, tenants end up parking on the street. At any reasonable level of density there are more cars associated with a building than the curb space it occupies, so parking spills over all around the neighborhood. Removing minimum parking requirements is reasonable, but it should be done in such a way that…

In this event, there's clearly a demand, so developers can build parking garages. What we do now is make the costs of parking invisible by putting it in everyone's rent (even those who don't own cars), instead of letting people show how much they want parking via their willingness to pay for it.

I live in an apartment with no parking. However, some people in my neighborhood like having cars. Fortunately, the solution is simple - they pay for monthly parking at the garage around the corner, and I don't subsidize people's parking in my rent.

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#217

Post by faragon » Sun, Aug 07, 2016, 5:01 PM UTC

scalesolved wrote: post #121

faragon wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people in Barcelona are not "pro-independence". Most "pro-independence" people come from rural areas, or small cities. Industrial and touristic areas of Catalan region of Spain are not nationalists/separatists. That sentiment comes much like in other regions, because of the crisis. P.S. I live in Barcelona.

Slightly different personal data point from my guiri perspective living in Barcelona I'd say that of the 12-15 Catalans that I know well the clear majority are pro independence. Seems polls have between 60-80% of Catalans want independence : http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/poll-finds-th... http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29982960 As the urban region of Barcelona has around 5 million residents (7.5…

You "forget" that the "80%" was on an unofficial and illegal (currently on Court) poll/"referendum" with massive abstention, because supported mostly by Catalan nationalist parties, and not by constitutionalists (the ones supporting the Rule of Law). Real pro-independency support in Catalan regions is about 35-45%, being much less in industrial and touristic areas (you can find official statistics about the subject -INE and CEO-).

In my opinion, nationalist agitprop in Catalonia, more than reaching the independence from Spain, it will "break" Catalan region psychologically in two, because of the polarization, much like it happens in North Ireland or Belgium. I hope it doesn't happen in Barcelona, as it is a nice place to live and invest, with really nice and open minded people.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29478415

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#218

Post by CalRobert » Sun, Aug 07, 2016, 5:01 PM UTC

grok2 wrote: post #214

superuser2 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a reasonable other side to this: when developers don't build parking but people still feel a need to have cars, tenants end up parking on the street. At any reasonable level of density there are more cars associated with a building than the curb space it occupies, so parking spills over all around the neighborhood. Removing minimum parking requirements is reasonable, but it should be done in such a way that…

In addition to making surrounding streets no-parking perhaps there should be some assurance of public transit nearby? If not, no one is going to rent or buy in that location -- if they can't have cars and they can't use transit easily, then the location becomes unattractive. Question is -- can the local government ensure that? I think one thing everyone is missing is that having the freedom to have cars has an econom…

Street parking is not a necessity, parking garages exist. When people are willing to pay the market rate for land to house their car then there will be a motive for people to build garages. Otherwise it's just parking welfare paid by those unable to afford cars to those who are.

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#219

Post by ArtDev » Sun, Aug 07, 2016, 5:13 PM UTC

The Netherlands has already done this perfectly. A third of the road is for cars, a third for bikes and a third for pedestrians.

Thanks to elaborate signage and colored pavement they have made riding a bike around cars actually safe. A bike can hold a lot of groceries!

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#220

Post by pessimizer » Sun, Aug 07, 2016, 5:53 PM UTC

CrackpotGonzo wrote: post #108

superuser2 wrote: post #102

I feel compelled to dissent against initiatives to directly take cars off the road, rather than improve alternatives. Growing up in the suburbs without a car, I was really excited about carless urban life. Then I actually experienced it (Hyde Park, Chicago). I'm on the opposite corner of the neighborhood from the business districts, so a little errand like CVS or the grocery store is around half an hour by foot each…

I think your problem is that you live in Hyde Park. It is quite isolated from the rest of the city. I agree with you that CTA should step up service to the south side, but living on the north side or west side you would much more easily live without a car. Source: lived on north and west sides for past 5 years and don't have/don't want a car.

It's both isolated and largely residential. Not a lot of large stores, just a lot of University of Chicago buildings. It's the most isolated place in Chicago where white people are willing to live. Source: 40 years old, born in Chicago, live in Chicago, attended Ray School and Kenwood, sister taught at UofC, never had a driver's license.

Also, Chicago is a designed garden city, enforced by zoning. It's largely and intentionally built up of huge residential arrays of city blocks, a half mile to a side, separated by boulevards where all businesses are packed. So, if you live in the middle of one of these blocks, it's 10-15 minutes of walking to see any business. If taking away drivable areas were accompanied by changes that allowed businesses to be built within those areas, like corner stores, I guarantee that groceries wouldn't be a half-hour away.

edit: that's what I get for reading comments before the article. Chicago is perfect for superblocks. It pretty much has them already.