Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars • Hacker News Board

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#101

Post by jacquesm » Sat, Aug 06, 2016, 8:26 PM UTC

faragon wrote: post #99

jacquesm wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last I checked Barcelona was still in Spain. If they object I'm fine with it but I'm not going to 'tune' my comments to whether or not someone may or may not be offended when for the rest of the world 'Catalonia' is solidly part of Spain. Frisians are Dutch too, and Welsh are British and so on. All of the above are also Europeans...

Most people in Barcelona are not "pro-independence". Most "pro-independence" people come from rural areas, or small cities. Industrial and touristic areas of Catalan region of Spain are not nationalists/separatists. That sentiment comes much like in other regions, because of the crisis. P.S. I live in Barcelona.

That's pretty much my experience. I spent a few weeks every year in Barcelona for the last 3 years or so, super nice people and a very nice city (especially the architecture and the amazing blend of city and sea).

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#102

Post by superuser2 » Sat, Aug 06, 2016, 8:28 PM UTC

I feel compelled to dissent against initiatives to directly take cars off the road, rather than improve alternatives.

Growing up in the suburbs without a car, I was really excited about carless urban life. Then I actually experienced it (Hyde Park, Chicago).

I'm on the opposite corner of the neighborhood from the business districts, so a little errand like CVS or the grocery store is around half an hour by foot each way. The bus or shuttle is usually a wash, given the time spent waiting for it. A bigger errand like Target or Macy's is a special occasion, taking about 50 minutes each way (walk to bus, wait for bus, ride bus, wait for train, ride train, walk from train station, or sometimes take yet another bus). A downtown or North Side restaurant, once you get tired of the local ones, is a similar ordeal.

Feeling trapped in the neighborhood was mostly an annoyance. I adapted by buying most things from Amazon (Prime is well worth it) and carefully planning shopping lists for brick-and-mortar stores. After a while I got tired the local restaurants, so I pretty much stopped eating out. I assuaged my claustrophobia by burning either money (Uber) or time to go downtown every few weekends, but generally spent as little money as possible when doing so. Still, it grew more annoying over a few years.

The turning point came when I realized that it took about as long to get from my apartment to the downtown train station (about 7 miles) as it did from that train station to Milwaukee (90 miles).

I bought a car recently, and my quality of life shot up dramatically. Distances that used to be a big deal are now nothing. Even if I'm going somewhere without cheap parking, I can drive directly to a train station instead of taking the bus. Life moves faster. I get to enjoy the city more often.

If the CTA would run more frequent, smaller vehicles on its routes I would easily go carless again. But instead it sounds like the approach is just to degrade the experience of owning a car until it's as bad as public transit, rather than the other way around. When that happens, it's off to the suburbs, I guess.

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#103

Post by danso » Sat, Aug 06, 2016, 8:33 PM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #85

gkya wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just hop on a bus then? How is it different?

I've never had an Uber ride longer than 25 minutes. I've never had a public transportation trip shorter than 50 minutes (walk to bus, wait, bus to train, wait, train to other bus, wait, bus to destination). I imagine this would be similar.

> I've never had an Uber ride longer than 25 minutes.

Off-topic but am wondering if this meant that you've waited for an Uber for 20+ minutes? I live in SV so there's always an Uber within 10 minutes, was just curious if drivers would really go 15+ min for a ride.

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#104

Post by lhopki01 » Sat, Aug 06, 2016, 8:34 PM UTC

massysett wrote: post #48

jurip wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd expect the total automobile traffic to be reduced, rather than all of it concentrating on the through streets. Making driving less convenient will push people who don't have to drive to leave their cars at home and go with public transport, bike or foot instead.

It can also do a number of other things: * cause people not to travel at all, thus keeping money in their pockets rather than spending it to benefit the economy * cause people who do not live in the city to drive to other places--places where their preferred mode of transportation is accommodated--to work or transact business * cause people who live in the city to leave due to increasing frustration with their inabil…

It can also do a number of things:

* causes people to not travel far away and to spend their money in the local economy

* cause an increase in people using public transport to get into the city because it is now a nice experience inside the city

* increase the health of individuals that are walking more and breathing less pollution thus making the city a more desirable place to live

* revitalise local businesses in each area leading to a more diverse stronger local business

* increase the amount people spend because they're walking past shops rather than driving past them and ignoring them

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#105

Post by clarry » Sat, Aug 06, 2016, 8:39 PM UTC

collyw wrote: post #52

johngalt wrote: post #44

This seems like the urban version of road hierarchy. With the local roads being more like a large shared driveway. Similar to how cul-de-sacs are used in suburban settings. The place to spend the money on improvements would be the roads outside of the 9 block cube. Obviously they would now have a lot more traffic.

Personally I love the idea of a car free city. (No idea how that might work). I am pretty sure a lot of the negativity of city living comes from the constant noise of traffic and horns.

Horns are a cultural thing. In some places they honk all the time. In .fi you're not supposed to use the horn except to warn of immediate danger. I can take a walk in town and get a headache from the noise without ever hearing a horn.

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#106

Post by superuser2 » Sat, Aug 06, 2016, 8:40 PM UTC

danso wrote: post #103

superuser2 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never had an Uber ride longer than 25 minutes. I've never had a public transportation trip shorter than 50 minutes (walk to bus, wait, bus to train, wait, train to other bus, wait, bus to destination). I imagine this would be similar.

> I've never had an Uber ride longer than 25 minutes. Off-topic but am wondering if this meant that you've waited for an Uber for 20+ minutes? I live in SV so there's always an Uber within 10 minutes, was just curious if drivers would really go 15+ min for a ride.

No, I usually wait about 5 minutes for an Uber and the ride itself is never longer than 20. I'm saying it's a lot faster.

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#107

Post by jomamaxx » Sat, Aug 06, 2016, 8:43 PM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #102

I feel compelled to dissent against initiatives to directly take cars off the road, rather than improve alternatives. Growing up in the suburbs without a car, I was really excited about carless urban life. Then I actually experienced it (Hyde Park, Chicago). I'm on the opposite corner of the neighborhood from the business districts, so a little errand like CVS or the grocery store is around half an hour by foot each…

The problem is not 'bikes v cars'.

It's how the city was planned.

European cities have small, walkable centers, the mid-density around that, then instead of suburbs, they have a lot of higher density hamlets around them.

Also - they don't have horrific winters in which walking/biking is a pain.

So - even for Frankfurt, which has a bunch of US style high-rises in the middle ... you can comfortably walk many places, and bike almost all of them, any time of year.

Combine that with widespread and completely integrated public transit (without goons, slubs and idiots ruining them) - it works extremely well.

Most North American cities are designed for cars: long blocks, no walkable 'high streets', very wide streets, less density, less public transport ... and often a harsh winter which makes it really uncomfortable for 5-ish months a year.

It will take more than bike lanes to change the nature of culture.

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#108

Post by CrackpotGonzo » Sat, Aug 06, 2016, 8:46 PM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #102

I feel compelled to dissent against initiatives to directly take cars off the road, rather than improve alternatives. Growing up in the suburbs without a car, I was really excited about carless urban life. Then I actually experienced it (Hyde Park, Chicago). I'm on the opposite corner of the neighborhood from the business districts, so a little errand like CVS or the grocery store is around half an hour by foot each…

I think your problem is that you live in Hyde Park. It is quite isolated from the rest of the city. I agree with you that CTA should step up service to the south side, but living on the north side or west side you would much more easily live without a car. Source: lived on north and west sides for past 5 years and don't have/don't want a car.

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#109

Post by ethanbond » Sat, Aug 06, 2016, 8:46 PM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #102

I feel compelled to dissent against initiatives to directly take cars off the road, rather than improve alternatives. Growing up in the suburbs without a car, I was really excited about carless urban life. Then I actually experienced it (Hyde Park, Chicago). I'm on the opposite corner of the neighborhood from the business districts, so a little errand like CVS or the grocery store is around half an hour by foot each…

If you take cars off the roads, people will rebuild (well, reorganize) their cities to account for it. Public transit obviously needs to be better pretty much everywhere in the US, but people also don't want to pay to make it better.

I'm a proponent of simply wiping out parking in most areas. That will incentivize people not to drive, therefore to walk/transit, therefore to value the transit systems and the design of their cities.

It's a serious issue of sunk cost, but eventually we need to bite the bullet and start moving in the other direction.

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#110

Post by dalke » Sat, Aug 06, 2016, 8:56 PM UTC

massysett wrote: post #69

goldfeld wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything humans do are for humans. What's your point? Transportation doesn't equal car, but more car space equals less pedestrian space.

My point is it is ridiculous to make statements like "the city is ruled by the car." The car is not a living thing. It cannot rule anything. All the cars are there because they serve people. People find them to be useful. What people are really saying when they claim the city is "ruled" by cars is that they believe there are too many cars--which is a rather odd statement, seeing as cars are useful and people voluntar…

> "What people are really saying .. they believe there are too many cars"

No. While I'm certain there are some who believe that, it is not a universal belief.

Which routes are the most direct, the ones for drivers, the ones for walkers, or the ones for cyclists? If the car route is most direct, while the safe biking route requires 25% more distance, then the car has been placed ahead of other modalities.

If walkers and cyclists are limited in where they can cross the street, then the system favors the car driver.

If drivers aren't required to stop for foot traffic, then the system favors the car driver.

If there are 6 lane surface roads with a crosswalk, but no pedestrian island or other safe refuge for slow walkers, then the system favors the car driver.

Are there ways to run most errands without using a car?

Are the roads constructed to maximize vehicle throughput? Or minimize maintenance costs? Or minimize the number of traffic deaths?

How much of vehicle parking is subsidized? (Don't forget zoning requirements for the number of parking spaces.)

The more the system favors driving over other modalities, the more reasonable it is to say that "the city is ruled by the car", at least metaphorically.

> Rather, they are motivated by their dislike for cars.

This is not true. The "Vision Zero" plan, for example, is motivated by the desire for no traffic deaths, not from a dislike for cars.

Austin, TX is putting that plan into place. At http://www.austinchronicle.com/news/2016-07-08/no-kill-for-t... you can see the logo for "Year of Mobility 2016", which includes all major transport modalities. It is not based on a dislike of cars.