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Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

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Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a serious issue of sunk cost, but eventually we need to bite the bullet and start moving in the other direction. This might have been true sometime in the seventies - but its entirely a moot point now. Public transportation has nearly no future in the US since self-driving cars will pretty much solve this with 10-15 years and so much better than public transport has or would have.

Bullshit: http://cdn.torontolife.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Transi...

This is very manipulative picture, although not as bad as the famous Munster photo (this: https://headwatersolver.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/64408578... notice how each photo has different perspective and zoom to make cars appear the biggest and bicycles the smallest).

When I need to get to the work, pick up groceries, transport two 30-inch displays across the town, etc., I simply do not walk out to the street, pose for a photo, smile, camera flash and go back to the building.

Transporting somewhere in terms of congestion is 'space integrated over time'.

First and obvious nitpick - there is single person in each car and absolutely no cargo.

Then, if it really worked like the picture suggest, the tram would need to: a) transport each person directly between their endpoints, b) do it in the same time as a car would do, c) be full to its capacity all the time.

Given all these conditions, the cars in the picture (disregarding the single person occupancy and cargo) would really equal to the single tram.

But that is not the case:

a),b) In a car one can drive the shortest/fastest route between his desired endpoints, in the tram/bus one needs to follow the lines. There simply cannot be a complete graph of public transport lines going from every possible start to every possible destination, so you need to run up some extra distance to a 'hub' and switch lines, adding time. And even if there is a direct line, it typically goes as it can serve more people. One example, suppose you have a city with predominantly commercial and industrial parts in the centre with majority of the jobs and predominantly living parts in a star shaped pattern on the outskirts. If you happen to travel from one living neighbourhood to another (e.g. you work there, you are visiting a girlfriend, sport venue), the public transport will take you through many many stops around the centre, while in individual transport you can go between the quarters directly skipping the center completely and getting there a lot faster. There simply isn't enough people to fill a tram/bus between non-major stops in a reasonable intervals.

c) Unless you have 100 % mixed jobs, industry, commerce, leisure, education, everything on each stop and unless you have this with perfectly balanced population density end-to-end, you won't have fully occupied vehicle. In order for that picture to be true, the tram would need to fill itself on its very first stop and on each stop, equal pax would need to enter/leave. Fiction. I live at the end of the tram line and in order to get my seat in the happy photo of a full tram in the picture, then the tram must first arrive almost completely empty (in the morning, everyone goes from this living neighbourhood to the jobs in the centre and back in the afternoon, reverse flows are minimal) to pick me up. Then, the tram continues quarter- to half-full for several stops until it really have at least [# of seats] pax onboard.

To sum up: I) tram takes twice the time because I have to route around with the majority of the flow instead of going direct route, II) it has to arrive almost empty to pick me up, III) it isn't full to [# of seats] for significant part of the journey.

So for me as a single person, count not one, but 4 to 6 seats to achieve the same 'space over time' density. If I pick up my colleague on the go or drop him of, count approx. 8 seats. Two colleagues, 10 seats.

Suddenly if all the cars in the picture doesn't conveniently fit into a single tram, but in several of them spaced apart, it isn't so nice propaganda...

PS: I lived in a socialistic east-bloc non-SSSR country. In order to have a car, you had to be privileged/bribe/camp on the waiting list (literally camp in front of the state-owned car dealership). The public transport was wonderful, there were railway tracks going to every forgotten small village, bus lines everywhere, intracity transport roared through empty streets. The catch? Be any small fraction different that the 'major' flow - morning shift, evening shift, night shift interchanges between industrial jobs/housing areas/villages and you are out of luck, you either got blackmarketed a car in any possible way (e.g. train drivers), drive bike through the harshest freezing conditions or go with the flow and forgo anything else than 'buy groceries at corner store' (with regulated flat prices regardless whether it is 500-ish person village or capital city), 'go to job early morning', 'return from job in the evening' (nevermind that job was compulsory). Think Venezuela in recent HN.

Making using a car more and more miserable without improving public transport is, in reality, beating everybody into the averageness of 'you need to go from this stop to this stop at this time', otherwise sit at home or in walking distance. I been there, seen the carless variant and the free carsupported variant and it is a lot better even if you have to sit out through a traffic jam.

TL;DR: The public transport excels at only one thing - very major traffic flows in peak hours. Sucks very much at everything else. Self-driving car can be a nice hybrid - offering full occupancy of vehicles traveling at minimal distances between them (coordinated braking) in peak times, while still functioning nicely outside of major flows and allowing complete freedom outside of the peak hours.

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about? Removing, say, 10% of parking spots per year for 8 years wouldn't require any of that. It would result in the same frustration that people already have and already cope with: "it sucks to park in the city." It's clear this isn't going anywhere, have a good weekend!

People would vote out politicians that put in place such obvious frustration-increasing measures. IMO the "solution" is necessarily holistic and incremental. Create a fast intra-city link, and you've effectively increased the density of the two areas joined by the link. If you think about space in terms of time required to go from point A to point B using a given subset of transport methods[1], fast point-to-point li…

I appreciate your interesting stance on this, but you're missing my point. I am not saying "ban cars and everything is fixed." I am saying "we will not fix our cities as long as we continue to invest in cars."

The best way I can think of to get people to divest from cars in a fair, gradual, legal, cheap, and realistic way is to eliminate parking over time.

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about? Removing, say, 10% of parking spots per year for 8 years wouldn't require any of that. It would result in the same frustration that people already have and already cope with: "it sucks to park in the city." It's clear this isn't going anywhere, have a good weekend!

People would vote out politicians that put in place such obvious frustration-increasing measures. IMO the "solution" is necessarily holistic and incremental. Create a fast intra-city link, and you've effectively increased the density of the two areas joined by the link. If you think about space in terms of time required to go from point A to point B using a given subset of transport methods[1], fast point-to-point li…

[deleted]

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it controls infinite amounts of money? As I've said in other comments, I'm all for investing heavily in transit infrastructure. If you want a solution that totally ignores the fiscal reality of the world, then yes, I agree, dumping massive amounts of money into public transit would be part of it.

Hardcore anti-car people don't live in reality.

Or I'm just not completely ignoring the problems that cars cause, you know, in reality.

In which reality do you live, wherein cars are totally fine?

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#175

To me the answer is making dedicated travel roads for bicycles and pedestrians. This idea is ok, in that it slows cars down, and maybe that's enough, but what I'd love in a city like San Francisco are dedicated roads that allow bicycles to safely travel across the entire city without having to worry about getting run down at every intersection. There are some streets that are safer than others, but what would be grea…

Chicago has a few streets like these and they're great. The bike line is protected from traffic by the parking lane. Parallel parking a car is easier, and the bikes are protected from the driver-side doors as well as traffic. The pedestrian lane is, of course, the sidewalk. You just have to really commit - a few protected blocks is nice, but people may not feel safe until it's the majority of their journey. Left turn…

> I'm sympathetic to taxi/uber

Not me. In SF at least they tend to block the bike lane and force bikes into vehicle traffic. For confident cyclists this is ok, but for many I can see that they do dumb things like try to pass on the right or not signal their intention to enter traffic.

This is why I suggest that the best thing would be to fully dedicate the entire road. As to fully protected lanes, this is good, but like you said, still leaves issues like left turns.

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#176
post #82
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Chile they have "collectivos" which are basically taxis that go on set routes, more like buses, and charges are closer to bus fares.

Collectivos are awesome (used them every day in Mexico). It blows my mind that countries we consider 'third-world' have such superior public transportation options.

Often, it’s because “advanced” countries have “advanced” consumer protection laws. A collectivo would be illegal here because it doesn’t have a hydraulic lift to pick up wheelchair-bound passengers.

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#177

I feel compelled to dissent against initiatives to directly take cars off the road, rather than improve alternatives. Growing up in the suburbs without a car, I was really excited about carless urban life. Then I actually experienced it (Hyde Park, Chicago). I'm on the opposite corner of the neighborhood from the business districts, so a little errand like CVS or the grocery store is around half an hour by foot each…

If you take cars off the roads, people will rebuild (well, reorganize) their cities to account for it. Public transit obviously needs to be better pretty much everywhere in the US, but people also don't want to pay to make it better. I'm a proponent of simply wiping out parking in most areas. That will incentivize people not to drive, therefore to walk/transit, therefore to value the transit systems and the design of…

Great if you live in a large city. How about a small town of 10,000 people? How about rural? How about people who commute? Vacationers? Those wanting to leave on vacation? It's easy to think in a bubble when you have relatively infinite resources at your disposal. However, the majority of people in the U.S do not.

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#178
post #129
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really want to add that I detest uber and the like for attempting to kill local businesses replacing them with lower quality cheaper services. Uber in no way replaces local businesses with lower quality cheaper services. In most markets it is replacing corrupt monopolies with a higher quality product. In the other markets it is just a higher quality product.

Please give examples.

Uber actually shows up, most cab companies I have used don't.

Uber cars are cleaner and have working air conditioning / heat

If you have a problem you just give the trip a bad review and someone follows up and actually does something about it (typically a refund)

You get emailed a receipt with everything you need to get reimbursed by your company instead of handed a blank card that you have to fill out yourself and hope your company believes.

In many markets there are a lot more Uber cars than taxis so it is much quicker to find one.

You don't have to hassle over paying with a credit card, no "the machine is broken" excuses.

Etc etc. I would never ride in a taxi again if there was Uber everywhere I went. Without question.

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#179
post #40
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's very expensive, and highly disrupts the walkability of the area.

It's a network effect, if you abandon street level for a wide area it can work really well. Considering the cost and impact of this change it's worth considering for other city's less focused on tourists.

Hong Kong has something like this in the city center and it works well. The entrance to many malls and buildings is on the pedestrian level, above street level.

On the other hand in residential areas they just share the streets - the streets are small with lots of bends so it artificially limits the speed at which you can drive.

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#180
post #88

They're called squares. lots of east coast cities have them except they're smaller and more manageable. for instance, Philadelphia has these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitler_Square,_Philadelphia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_Circle_(Philadelphia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Square_(Philadelphi... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rittenhouse_Square not to mention the smaller ones: http://philadelp…

> good luck getting an ambulance into the middle of one of those on a crowded Saturday night. Crowded?

engrish?
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