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Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

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Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#141

Post by superuser2 »

ethanbond wrote: post #136
mwfunk wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've become very skeptical of any plan to just get rid of something that people need and use, in the hope that that will magically force the issue and usher credible alternatives into existence years down the line. It's sort of like a government trying to reduce government spending by cutting taxes (i.e., the "don't feed the beast" approach). Such efforts never end up reducing spending, rather they just create an env…

It's not really the same at all to your tax analog. The difference is that Congress has the ability to reduce spending and to cut taxes. With the car problem, no one entity has the power to devise nor enforce a holistic solution. Of course, with the exception of a fascist overthrow of the state that tears down cities and rebuilds with central planning. The government can't just come and take people's cars away – you…

>no one entity has the power to devise nor enforce a holistic solution

Yes there is - the city government that controls the parking spaces, also controls the transit system.

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#142

Post by superuser2 »

CrackpotGonzo wrote: post #108
superuser2 wrote: post #102

I feel compelled to dissent against initiatives to directly take cars off the road, rather than improve alternatives. Growing up in the suburbs without a car, I was really excited about carless urban life. Then I actually experienced it (Hyde Park, Chicago). I'm on the opposite corner of the neighborhood from the business districts, so a little errand like CVS or the grocery store is around half an hour by foot each…

I think your problem is that you live in Hyde Park. It is quite isolated from the rest of the city. I agree with you that CTA should step up service to the south side, but living on the north side or west side you would much more easily live without a car. Source: lived on north and west sides for past 5 years and don't have/don't want a car.

I agree that there are places where this isn't a problem.

Taking the cars away from places like Hyde Park won't magically make it one of them.

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#143

Post by ethanbond »

superuser2 wrote: post #133
ethanbond wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're asking basically every generation after us to have shitty environmental health and shitty cities for the entirety of their lives. Also, if you need a car to be mobile enough to live your life, you already have shitty mobility. You should have the ability to live your life without having to pay the tens of thousands of dollars that owning a car demands [0]. You could get rid of cars and with all that newly avai…

>shitty environmental health People would lose essentially nothing by stepping down from SUVs/crossovers to compact sedans/hatchbacks. We could start there. There's also the issue of average age: driving an older car is a classic case of negative externality. Driver saves money, everyone else suffers for their worse emissions and fuel efficiency. These are both excellent targets for tighter regulation. My argument he…

Sure. Now go ahead and try to regulate those, like many have been trying for literally decades. We've gotten better, but it's still not enough and our cities/suburbs still suffer from the non-environmental side effects of designing cities around cars. Such as, you know, having to purchase a car to be mobile.

I would really like a large scale holistic solution, but again, we've been having this debate for decades and we haven't moved fast enough. If we continue to build our cities for cars, then we will continue to need cars.

Reducing parking in cities is one decision that could have large scale effects and that doesn't require a dictatorship or nationwide collective epiphany to institute.

And yes, higher prices hurt consumers, as in they damage the one facet of an entire human being that's responsible for purchasing things. But there are many other facets of a human being that would be much better off with fewer cars around them, and I dare say that many of those facets are more important to preserve than ease of consumption. The human race survived for many thousands of years with nothing even resembling an automobile, and now after 100 years you're positing that we simply cannot go on without them?

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#144

Post by ethanbond »

superuser2 wrote: post #141
ethanbond wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really the same at all to your tax analog. The difference is that Congress has the ability to reduce spending and to cut taxes. With the car problem, no one entity has the power to devise nor enforce a holistic solution. Of course, with the exception of a fascist overthrow of the state that tears down cities and rebuilds with central planning. The government can't just come and take people's cars away – you…

>no one entity has the power to devise nor enforce a holistic solution Yes there is - the city government that controls the parking spaces, also controls the transit system.

And it controls infinite amounts of money? As I've said in other comments, I'm all for investing heavily in transit infrastructure. If you want a solution that totally ignores the fiscal reality of the world, then yes, I agree, dumping massive amounts of money into public transit would be part of it.

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#145

Post by bluejekyll »

To me the answer is making dedicated travel roads for bicycles and pedestrians. This idea is ok, in that it slows cars down, and maybe that's enough, but what I'd love in a city like San Francisco are dedicated roads that allow bicycles to safely travel across the entire city without having to worry about getting run down at every intersection.

There are some streets that are safer than others, but what would be great is if say Valencia, Cortland, Market, Haight, Cole, Columbus and some other roads through downtown (like minna St. and Stevenson) were dedicated to bikes. Some have main bus lines, so maybe allow those to continue to operate as mixed use with bikes and buses. The intention is to make bike thorough fares which are safe from collisions with cars and especially delivery trucks.

This in my mind is the fastest way to transition from a car gridlocked city to one where alternative things like bikes, and battery assisted bikes, can operate safely. Most travel in cities is under 2 miles, perfect for biking (I have a bike that has seats for both my kids, which makes it great for families too).

Safety is probably the largest reason why more people don't bicycle, and targeting main shopping districts would encourage their use to get to those places, while also increasing the general enjoyment of those areas, with the added benefit of increasing traffic to businesses in those areas.

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#146

Post by hellsch »

ocschwar wrote: post #135
hellsch wrote: post #126

I live in Barcelona and most of the people are not happy. A simple math problem for you in order to understand why. Currently with a top speed of 50kmh the average speed is 36kmh. Now reducing the top speed partially to 10kmh how fast will be the average? Well, it can be argued that the traffic will shift to the faster streets on the periphery of the super blocks, so this streets will have to grow in order to be able…

Driving at top speed just means you wait longer at the next red light. Average speed will probably not drop at all.

Good point, additionally there are more parameters that influence the average speed. But the reality is that I now need at least 30% longer to reach certain areas. Ironically this areas with now huge pedestrian sidewalks are full of shops and other business which I now try to avoid.

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#147

Post by spraak »

bluejekyll wrote: post #145

To me the answer is making dedicated travel roads for bicycles and pedestrians. This idea is ok, in that it slows cars down, and maybe that's enough, but what I'd love in a city like San Francisco are dedicated roads that allow bicycles to safely travel across the entire city without having to worry about getting run down at every intersection. There are some streets that are safer than others, but what would be grea…

Yes, the Netherlands has this. The idea is a cycle track, or protected bike lane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_track

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#148

Post by QuarterReptile »

bluejekyll wrote: post #145

To me the answer is making dedicated travel roads for bicycles and pedestrians. This idea is ok, in that it slows cars down, and maybe that's enough, but what I'd love in a city like San Francisco are dedicated roads that allow bicycles to safely travel across the entire city without having to worry about getting run down at every intersection. There are some streets that are safer than others, but what would be grea…

Slowing cars down is huge. First of all, probability of someone dying when a driver hits a person dips below 5% right around 20mph. At that point you already invite life back onto the street. Then once you have it there, drivers learn that they can't be distracted. Drivers should not feel comfortable when driving in urban environments.

That's not say you shouldn't have good old-fashioned car sewers, but the dearth of accesses should make it abundantly clear that those places are just car-movers, not places where economic activity happens.

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#149

Post by nirvanis »

enjoylife wrote: post #33

I just came back from an extended trip in Barcelona, and I saw first hand how there is plenty of wasted space in neighborhoods. Many intersections between dense housing areas are overly large hexagons where you must annoyingly walk around dedicated parking spaces to cross streets. https://www.flickr.com/photos/16nine/22802717995 Hopefully the city will have buy-in from the residents, as this plan seems to also modify…

I'm from Barcelona (but abroad now). The whole bus system is being revamped (for the last 4 years) and is being done gradually.

It's been a painless transition for most. In general, the amount of transfers to reach a destination has dropped, the average speed of bus routes has increased and the frequency of the revamped lines is better than the old ones.

Basically, the buses "adapt" to the grid following "horizontal", "vertical" and "west-east diagonal" routes (as much as possible).

The streets the buses run on are either main streets (those that will be the veins of the supergrids) or pacified streets with dedicated lanes (in some cases reverse direction lanes [such as Carrer Pi i Molist]).

The transition, as I said, is being implemented gradually, with very intensive campaigns informing impacted neighborhoods. IIRC, 50% of the new routes are in place. New ones are introduced twice a year approx.

Regarding your comment about the intersections in Eixample... I bet you will not find anyone in Barcelona who does not love them. They make the city open. And even if it seems impossible, there are occasions when they can be used to make the neighborhoods come together: http://eldigital.barcelona.cat/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/en...

:)

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#150

Post by thesauri »

jomamaxx wrote: post #107
superuser2 wrote: post #102

I feel compelled to dissent against initiatives to directly take cars off the road, rather than improve alternatives. Growing up in the suburbs without a car, I was really excited about carless urban life. Then I actually experienced it (Hyde Park, Chicago). I'm on the opposite corner of the neighborhood from the business districts, so a little errand like CVS or the grocery store is around half an hour by foot each…

The problem is not 'bikes v cars'. It's how the city was planned. European cities have small, walkable centers, the mid-density around that, then instead of suburbs, they have a lot of higher density hamlets around them. Also - they don't have horrific winters in which walking/biking is a pain. So - even for Frankfurt, which has a bunch of US style high-rises in the middle ... you can comfortably walk many places, an…

> Also - they don't have horrific winters in which walking/biking is a pain.

As someone living in the Nordics, that's news to me.

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