Untitled topic • Hacker News Board

Re: undefined

#41

Post by mikestew » Fri, Aug 05, 2016, 9:57 PM UTC

_isus wrote: post #40

mikestew wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is how we go down the road of It Means Whatever You Want It to Mean: "well, when viewed in historical context..." I'm not some casual observer in this with an agenda. I've previously been a licensed pastor for a denomination you've heard of. Read the texts cover-to-cover more times than you have, studied Koine Greek and Hebrew with professors that have professionally translated texts. I'm not appealing to au…

> How about we take Jesus at his word, and quit being so materialistic? I agree with you. > ... but one can go the other way with so much "context" that Jesus himself wouldn't recognize the religion you end up with. That is sadly what is done a lot of times. Being a follower means I seek to be who Jesus wants me to be. Often this means I have to lay down my view of things and take up His view of things. > Hence my co…

Don't give up too soon.

I do appreciate your response, and trust that I'm smiling when I write this without any contempt: when do I get to give up? I'd say I gave it a more fair shot than most. Maybe it's $DEITY's turn to pick some of the slack. :-)

From my wall of text, one might conclude that I did, indeed, give it a fair and sincere shot. And I came to a different conclusion that you appear to have. No worries, I'm fine with that, we all make our own journey. I've enjoyed mine, and I hope you enjoy yours.

Re: undefined

#42

Post by _isus » Fri, Aug 05, 2016, 10:11 PM UTC

mikestew wrote: post #41

_isus wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How about we take Jesus at his word, and quit being so materialistic? I agree with you. > ... but one can go the other way with so much "context" that Jesus himself wouldn't recognize the religion you end up with. That is sadly what is done a lot of times. Being a follower means I seek to be who Jesus wants me to be. Often this means I have to lay down my view of things and take up His view of things. > Hence my co…

Don't give up too soon. I do appreciate your response, and trust that I'm smiling when I write this without any contempt: when do I get to give up? I'd say I gave it a more fair shot than most. Maybe it's $DEITY's turn to pick some of the slack. :-) From my wall of text, one might conclude that I did, indeed, give it a fair and sincere shot. And I came to a different conclusion that you appear to have. No worries, I'…

> I do appreciate your response, and trust that I'm smiling when I write this without any contempt: when do I get to give up?

And, likewise, I hope you do not feel any contempt from me. When do you get to give up? I do not mean this in a disrespectful way ... I would ask God.

> Maybe it's $DEITY's turn to pick some of the slack. :-)

I just prayed that you will sense His love for you (and maybe even interpret that as picking up some of the slack).

> From my wall of text, one might conclude that I did, indeed, give it a fair and sincere shot.

I, for one, do not fault you for lack of trying. I am just saying don't give up now ... breakthrough could be around the corner. That is what I have prayed for you.

> And I came to a different conclusion that you appear to have. No worries, I'm fine with that, we all make our own journey. I've enjoyed mine, and ...

Ultimately, we all have to choose which path to follow. I respect you for at least giving it serious thought and consideration.

> I hope you enjoy yours.

Overall, yes, but following Jesus Christ does not necessarily make life easier. It certainly isn't boring, though! :)

Re: undefined

#43

Post by dalke » Fri, Aug 05, 2016, 10:12 PM UTC

_isus wrote: post #29

PaulKeeble wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost everybody believed the world was flat, then they were proved wrong. So many of the objective "facts" in the bible have been proved scientifically wrong and no such inaccuracy should exist given divine input. If god exists and was on Earth then he is very vindictive desperate for destruction and violence, humanities aim should be to destroy him. Thankfully there is no evidence to say he does beyond a book with…

> So many of the objective "facts" in the bible have been proved scientifically wrong and no such inaccuracy should exist given divine input. Not sure what you are referring to being disproved. It is true that a person's interpretation of the Bible may be disproved, but I am unaware of any source that has truly disproved the Bible. The same cannot be said for many of the theories that are taken as fact. > If god exis…

PaulKeeble appears to be making the weaker argument "the bible have been proved scientifically wrong", not the stronger claim of "truly disproved the Bible". If you agree with Gould "two non-overlapping magisteria" argument, then the Bible cannot be "truly disproved" because it covers topics that cannot be examined or disproved by science. Only the parts which overlap with science can be proved or disproved by science.

I'll give an example where the scientific facts as described in the Bible do not appear to be reconcilable with historical or archeological evidence: the Exodus story. Quoting from http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/The-Exodus-D... :

> So that makes archaeologists reluctant to have to tell our brethren and ourselves that there is nothing in Egyptian records to support it. Nothing on the slavery of the Israelites, nothing on the plagues that persuaded Pharaoh to let them go, nothing on the miraculous crossing of the Red Sea, nothing.

> Nothing at all. There are three Pharaohs who said they got rid of the hated foreigners, but nothing to say who the foreigners were, and no Pharaoh is named as having persecuted foreign slaves or suffered unspeakable plagues.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the_Exodus summarizes more of the historical and archeological details. While that can be perceived as having a built-in bias against the Bible, it proves to be hard to find other sources which are not merely hand-waving apologetics pages.

Re: undefined

#44

Post by edwhitesell » Fri, Aug 05, 2016, 11:52 PM UTC

_isus wrote: post #42

mikestew wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't give up too soon. I do appreciate your response, and trust that I'm smiling when I write this without any contempt: when do I get to give up? I'd say I gave it a more fair shot than most. Maybe it's $DEITY's turn to pick some of the slack. :-) From my wall of text, one might conclude that I did, indeed, give it a fair and sincere shot. And I came to a different conclusion that you appear to have. No worries, I'…

> I do appreciate your response, and trust that I'm smiling when I write this without any contempt: when do I get to give up? And, likewise, I hope you do not feel any contempt from me. When do you get to give up? I do not mean this in a disrespectful way ... I would ask God. > Maybe it's $DEITY's turn to pick some of the slack. :-) I just prayed that you will sense His love for you (and maybe even interpret that as…

This discussion between the two of you is one of the best I've witnessed when it comes to religion and some of the contradictory points. I commend you both a great deal.

However, it also sums up the views of many on religion in a fairly clear way: Whatever it means to you is yours, only yours. Your neighbor is entirely entitled to decide their own meanings as well.

Re: undefined

#45

Post by bjmarte » Sat, Aug 06, 2016, 12:09 AM UTC

bwoj wrote: post #31

crazy_geek wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've run into what appear to be conflicting views, but after some study, I'm able to resolve them. Usually it's understanding things in their proper context. That is: it's by reading more and paying more attention.

For most people that hew to the teachings of the book, understanding the proper context involves a religious authority telling them which parts of the book matter and which ones to ignore because they don't matter any more. I would like for a divinely inspired book of ageless wisdom to not be so subject to the whims of interpretation.

And how to you keep a book from being interpreted? I can barely utter a phrase without having to deal with my wife's misinterpretation.

Re: undefined

#46

Post by fraytormenta » Sat, Aug 06, 2016, 1:37 AM UTC

pastProlog wrote: post #32

fraytormenta wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Friend, I'll answer to your last point because it is the most misguided. The Church of the East had its own course independent of the Catholic Church. By the early 13th century they lived under Islam and outnumbered Catholics. Nothing that the Catholic Church did carried any kind of weight East of Antioch. Please read up on Jacobite churches and Timothy I, patriarch of Baghdad. It is good for Westerners to study the…

This is a straw man argument like the article. My last point is that the Catholic church was not able to change any texts (or creeds or customs) in the east. It just ignored them. Somehow you read those words and somehow divined that somewhere between the lines I said that the Catholic church had a major influence on churches in the east. Then you say how misguided this view is. Where did I say this? I said the Catho…

Hey thanks for clarifying. You didn't say this directly, but I think I was misled by this convoluted statement: "The Catholic church didn't have to rewrite all documents everywhere, it just ignored the ones it didn't like and made canon what it did like." If this is true, why is the Assyrian canon smaller?

Re: undefined

#47

Post by fraytormenta » Sat, Aug 06, 2016, 1:41 AM UTC

bjmarte wrote: post #45

bwoj wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For most people that hew to the teachings of the book, understanding the proper context involves a religious authority telling them which parts of the book matter and which ones to ignore because they don't matter any more. I would like for a divinely inspired book of ageless wisdom to not be so subject to the whims of interpretation.

And how to you keep a book from being interpreted? I can barely utter a phrase without having to deal with my wife's misinterpretation.

Everything is interpreted if it passes through a thinking brain. There is no point in trying to avoid interpretation, but it is good to aim for high quality in interpretation. In classic Christianity, good interpretation has to (1) satisfy and harmonize with the rest of the material in the Bible, (2) harmonize with the character and example of Christ, (3) carry some weight and adherence in the Church over many generations.

Re: undefined

#48

Post by fraytormenta » Sat, Aug 06, 2016, 1:45 AM UTC

dalke wrote: post #39

fraytormenta wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's not enough evidence. i asked for academic reference, because i don't think engaging an uninformed minority view is fruitful if the person presenting the view didn't bother to learn what views there are out there to begin with. it is better to look to a professional historian - do you expect that I can present something better than they here in the comment section?

In the US, the Bible was used by both the slavers and the abolitionists to justify their viewpoints. The abolitionist book "Uncle Tom's Cabin" was written in part to counter the pro-slavery argument that the Bible allowed slavery. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery gives a overview, as does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery . The latter gives this example of the acceptance of s…

brother that's accurate, but also misdirected. Prolonged support for slavery in the Christian community does not negate the undeniable fact that is the Christianity community under the influence of the Bible that put in the most sweat in ending slavery. I had a question directly uncovering this truth: if not the Christians under the influence of the Bible, then what caused slavery to decline?

Re: undefined

#49

Post by dalke » Sat, Aug 06, 2016, 1:59 AM UTC

bjmarte wrote: post #45

bwoj wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For most people that hew to the teachings of the book, understanding the proper context involves a religious authority telling them which parts of the book matter and which ones to ignore because they don't matter any more. I would like for a divinely inspired book of ageless wisdom to not be so subject to the whims of interpretation.

And how to you keep a book from being interpreted? I can barely utter a phrase without having to deal with my wife's misinterpretation.

I believe that is the point.

crazy_geek says apparent conflicting views in the Bible can be reconciled by sufficient study.

bwoj points out that there isn't a universal agreement of what the Bible says. (I'll add, compare the Catholic Church to Jehovah's Witnesses for an example of the differences.)

It would be easier to interpret the Bible if parts of it were labeled "the following is not meant to be read as an actual history." At the very least, this would reduce the number of people think there was a global flood, or think that the 1 million+ Jews were enslaved in Egypt then spent 40 years wandering in the desert.

There would still be misinterpretations, but they would only be of a religious nature, and not include the historical misinterpretations which, in the case of the Exodus, took over 2,000 years to correct.

Re: undefined

#50

Post by fraytormenta » Sat, Aug 06, 2016, 2:06 AM UTC

mikestew wrote: post #41

_isus wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How about we take Jesus at his word, and quit being so materialistic? I agree with you. > ... but one can go the other way with so much "context" that Jesus himself wouldn't recognize the religion you end up with. That is sadly what is done a lot of times. Being a follower means I seek to be who Jesus wants me to be. Often this means I have to lay down my view of things and take up His view of things. > Hence my co…

Don't give up too soon. I do appreciate your response, and trust that I'm smiling when I write this without any contempt: when do I get to give up? I'd say I gave it a more fair shot than most. Maybe it's $DEITY's turn to pick some of the slack. :-) From my wall of text, one might conclude that I did, indeed, give it a fair and sincere shot. And I came to a different conclusion that you appear to have. No worries, I'…

mike, I believe you slightly mistook my point. I was not saying that interpretation is a purely subjective matter. I said that, regarding ending slavery, your interpretation of what the Bible has no bearing on events that had already transpired. You were not the one ending it, so if you believe that the Bible supports slavery, that is entirely irrelevant to the point in case. About giving up, I would say never give up learning and seeking truth anywhere where you have attention for it. Invariably, I am convinced at the end of each truth inquiry is the fountain of Truth - God. As long as you are learning, you will find Him.