Praise for Intelligence Can Undermine Children's Motivation (1998) [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: Praise for Intelligence Can Undermine Children's Motivation (1998) [pdf]

#81

Post by Practicality » Fri, Aug 05, 2016, 7:17 PM UTC

I tell my child she is smart AND that that isn't enough for us. We know she is smart, but so are we and we can tell when she is slacking and lying.

It's actually working very well, but it took quite a while for her to believe us. In the long run she is showing a deep appreciation for how honest we are with her.

This would likely work with most smarter children. If you don't play mind games with them they will stop trying to play mind games on you.

-- Edit on my side note here -- She still plays games with most other adults but I would be a hypocrite to try to eliminate it completely. Mostly I just caution her on how it erodes trust and trust is very valuable. Besides, most adults are not completely honest with her so it's only fair.

Re: Praise for Intelligence Can Undermine Children's Motivation (1998) [pdf]

#82

Post by gkya » Fri, Aug 05, 2016, 7:18 PM UTC

lossolo wrote: post #48

I can confirm that. When i was child, every teacher said to me and my parents that i am so gifted, so smart. And i thought i am so smart that i don't need to spend so much time on school like others. So i missed on school a lot. In high school there were classes on which i was less than 50% throughout the semester. And it was ok, i needed only 2 last weeks to pass all the tests. In last year i did the same, again i n…

The lesson being: be normal and normal only, otherwise you will be made so, through intoleration, discrimination and assimilation. Public school system is for average people, and I don't mean anything hostile saying that. You are, on the base of your story here, above average in your intellectual capacity, and don't need to go through the chores others need to go through to succeed your class. There's nothing unjust about that, and your gift. Just like some people are more attractive, you're smarter.

I've been through similar situations (tho my breaking points have been more often and exaggerated) and quite quickly I've learnt to quack like an average guy, and to walk like an average guy, but to not be one, in school. I've always been a step ahead from my peers in learning quickly and in investing minimum time to get maximum output from my studies. So I just went to school and acted like the next guy, and did whatever I wanted (whatever being programming, literature, philosophy, etc.) in my spare time.

There is no justice in this, as the headmaster of your school said to your parents, some are just naturally more inclined to apprehension. Furthermore, some like doing it more than others. But sometimes educational staff feel the need to normalise the outliers, because they believe that the rest will believe that them themselves are idiots and won't engage. So they confine those outliers, the smarter ones, to normality, to the average, sacrificing them for the rest. Not only are their assumptions wrong, but the effects may be really bad on the students, dissuading them from exploiting their gifts in the future.

Some people are better at learning. Others are better at other things. Do we break the noses of very good-looking students in the school because they have unjust advantage in getting into relationships? Do we somehow shorten taller students because they score more baskets that the others? Do we deflate the breasts of more bustier students because other girls may get jealous of them? I'm sorry if I sounded a bit harsh and immodest. I don't claim that some are better overall than others, but they are better in some treats. But in situations like in your anectodes and in many experiences I myself had as an outlier, I've seen that this sort of practice leads to a missionary of reducing everybody to the lowest common denominator with regards to educational abilities, rendering public schools futile.

Re: Praise for Intelligence Can Undermine Children's Motivation (1998) [pdf]

#83

Post by will_brown » Fri, Aug 05, 2016, 7:20 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #2

TL;DR: If you're interacting with a kid, try to avoid saying, "you're so smart!" and instead say, "You've picked this up really quickly" or "you're such a hard worker". If you tell a child they are smart then they will stop trying either because they assume they can get by on their intelligence or because they are afraid of failing and loosing your praise about how smart they are.

I also like a phrase that I know from sports, "you really showed me something today".

It is positive feedback based on performance and not a acknowledgement of inherent and innate abilities. Bronx tale might say it best, "there is nothing sadder in this World than wasted talent".

Edit: The article suggests otherwise, that praising ability leads to better outcomes than praising efforts (however, only under the conditions of success).

Re: Praise for Intelligence Can Undermine Children's Motivation (1998) [pdf]

#84

Post by Xcelerate » Fri, Aug 05, 2016, 7:22 PM UTC

soufron wrote: post #20

He is also fucking lucky... Which helps ! Winning the startup lottery does not equal being a life role model. I would not generalize on such people.

Once — okay, lucky. Twice — pretty rare but still possible. Three times? It's not luck at that point. (I'm referring to the progression from Zip2 to PayPal to SpaceX and Tesla).

Re: Praise for Intelligence Can Undermine Children's Motivation (1998) [pdf]

#85

Post by rezashirazian » Fri, Aug 05, 2016, 7:24 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #2

TL;DR: If you're interacting with a kid, try to avoid saying, "you're so smart!" and instead say, "You've picked this up really quickly" or "you're such a hard worker". If you tell a child they are smart then they will stop trying either because they assume they can get by on their intelligence or because they are afraid of failing and loosing your praise about how smart they are.

I hope this doesn't lead to praise overall can undermine motivation. The mere support and personal validation a child can derive from doing something would be a great motivation.

Re: Praise for Intelligence Can Undermine Children's Motivation (1998) [pdf]

#86

Post by nitrogen » Fri, Aug 05, 2016, 7:24 PM UTC

landryraccoon wrote: post #38

nitrogen wrote: post #29

Could it not be equally harmful to a smart kid to give them the impression that their intelligence is worthless? It seems there should be a balance where kids retain their motivation while also learning how to make the most of their personal advantages and disadvantages. If a smart kid is always taught the convenient fiction that everyone is exactly the same, then when they interact with an athletic kid who dominates…

> athletic kid who dominates them at sports but struggles academically, what conclusion will the smart kid draw? Your implicit assumption is that your kid will not succeed at something athletically no matter how hard they try . If a kid dreams of going for the NBA or the NFL, why not let them try? What's the benefit of praising a child for their intelligence if intelligence is immutable? Is it a self esteem play or w…

Your implicit assumption is that your kid will not succeed at something athletically no matter how hard they try. If a kid dreams of going for the NBA or the NFL, why not let them try?

It's a hypothetical example to show that there might be kids who are inherently good at different things, and that focusing on intelligence as the attribute not to praise hasn't played out over the last 18 years the way people seemed to expect in 1998.

My point is that intellectual aspirations are just as valid as athletic ones, and that kids should be free to choose their goals and dreams with full awareness of their own advantages and disadvantages.

What's the benefit of praising a child for their intelligence if intelligence is immutable?

The benefit I am proposing is that truly intelligent children won't be afraid to use their intelligence to get ahead, nor be afraid to admit where they might not be ahead. IMO maximizing individual potential puts society in a better position to maximize societal potential than trying to normalize everyone to be similar.

Re: Praise for Intelligence Can Undermine Children's Motivation (1998) [pdf]

#87

Post by wrsh07 » Fri, Aug 05, 2016, 7:25 PM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #80

jedberg wrote: post #2

TL;DR: If you're interacting with a kid, try to avoid saying, "you're so smart!" and instead say, "You've picked this up really quickly" or "you're such a hard worker". If you tell a child they are smart then they will stop trying either because they assume they can get by on their intelligence or because they are afraid of failing and loosing your praise about how smart they are.

Having raised three kids I have learned that 99% of all parenting advice does not apply to any specific child and any specific parent. That said, parenting goals are consistent; Helping kids to understand the world around them, understand their effect on the world, and recognizing what it will take to achieve a particular goal. Telling kids they are "smart" is part of the "understanding the world around them" goal. T…

I interpret this advice as trying to give accurate feedback. Students don't get As on tests because they're naturals. They get As on tests from paying attention in class or from studying or from doing their homework [or for some combination].

So crediting what they did specifically (pay attention, study, etc) to accomplish their goal (get an A on a test) is a way to reward the work that they did [and to tie the success -- the A -- to the work that they did].

Saying "you have such a good vocabulary" is a compliment, but it's not a useful one. Saying "your reading has really helped you develop your vocabulary" might be better?

Re: Praise for Intelligence Can Undermine Children's Motivation (1998) [pdf]

#88

Post by wrsh07 » Fri, Aug 05, 2016, 7:28 PM UTC

dllthomas wrote: post #5

jedberg wrote: post #2

TL;DR: If you're interacting with a kid, try to avoid saying, "you're so smart!" and instead say, "You've picked this up really quickly" or "you're such a hard worker". If you tell a child they are smart then they will stop trying either because they assume they can get by on their intelligence or because they are afraid of failing and loosing your praise about how smart they are.

"You worked really hard on it that!" seems a bad thing to say without having observed the kid working hard. I know if I'd been told I worked hard on something that came easily, it would have cost the speaker credibility. My tentative plan, for my son, is to phrase it as a question. "Did you work hard on this?". If so, praise the hard work. If not, "let's find you something more challenging".

Just try to give credit for the things they did, not for what they are.

Eg if they paid attention in class, or if they took good notes, or if they did the homework, or if they studied -- credit that. Hopefully as a parent you'll have some idea of how they're spending their time.

But I absolutely agree that saying something false is not going to do them any favors [although they might learn that you have no idea how they spend their time].

Re: Praise for Intelligence Can Undermine Children's Motivation (1998) [pdf]

#89

Post by nitrogen » Fri, Aug 05, 2016, 7:32 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #59

nitrogen wrote: post #29

Could it not be equally harmful to a smart kid to give them the impression that their intelligence is worthless? It seems there should be a balance where kids retain their motivation while also learning how to make the most of their personal advantages and disadvantages. If a smart kid is always taught the convenient fiction that everyone is exactly the same, then when they interact with an athletic kid who dominates…

>Could it not be equally harmful to a smart kid to give them the impression that their intelligence is worthless? That just doesn't make sense. Praise your kid for doing not for being. Who's advocating teaching smart kids everyone is the same? It seems like any child is going to realize this isn't true. >is this "praise effort and self esteem" movement responsible for the current wave of anti-free-speech protests on…

Who's advocating teaching smart kids everyone is the same?

It seems that has been the general trend in elementary education since I was a kid. As an example, I remember the year that all the talent trophies were changed to be the same size, and everyone got one just for participating. Athletics were an exception, though; it was considered acceptable to be better at sports. It was a noble attempt to try to boost the underprivileged, but just ended up confusing everyone.

The once reasonable protesting class are being supplanted by increasingly unreasonable protestors who are rebels searching desperately for a cause.

This is an interesting explanation for the phenomenon I had not yet considered. I am not yet convinced it is the right or only one, but I will keep it in mind.

Re: Praise for Intelligence Can Undermine Children's Motivation (1998) [pdf]

#90

Post by ChuckMcM » Fri, Aug 05, 2016, 7:34 PM UTC

wrsh07 wrote: post #87

ChuckMcM wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having raised three kids I have learned that 99% of all parenting advice does not apply to any specific child and any specific parent. That said, parenting goals are consistent; Helping kids to understand the world around them, understand their effect on the world, and recognizing what it will take to achieve a particular goal. Telling kids they are "smart" is part of the "understanding the world around them" goal. T…

I interpret this advice as trying to give accurate feedback. Students don't get As on tests because they're naturals. They get As on tests from paying attention in class or from studying or from doing their homework [or for some combination]. So crediting what they did specifically (pay attention, study, etc) to accomplish their goal (get an A on a test) is a way to reward the work that they did [and to tie the succe…

Yup. "I appreciate that by continuing to develop your vocabulary you've developed the ability to quickly absorb the concepts you read about or hear discussed."