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Brasília at Midnight

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Re: Brasília at Midnight

#71

Post by brbrodude »

andrenth wrote: post #61
brbrodude wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rightists like to oversimplify and make it as if anyone who disagrees with them is brainwashed and stupid, I think it's a shame. The biggest problem to me is that the political crisis only use it seems will be to hand power over to the other side, without fixing or changing anything, the corruption will stay the same and the little reforms that led us here are gonna be rolled back, the new ones in power are sure to w…

I think your view of people who think differently from you is the one that's oversimplified. This mentalitity of "everything will stay the same so let's do nothing" is harmful in my opinion. We must take down the current corrupt politicians, and if others replace them, we take them down too.

That's not my mentallity. But yeah, I agree with this, when does it start? Seems it's already gone.

Re: Brasília at Midnight

#72

Post by rafaelferreira »

andrenth wrote: post #51
rafaelferreira wrote: post #34

As another Brazillian, let me offer an attempt at a more distanced take on the matter. Roussef's impeachment proceedings are motivated by alleged budget manipulation. I don't think there are many who would say the maneuvers in question were 100% kosher, but the question of whether it is a sound basis for impeaching an elected president is not a simple one. Renowned legal scholars differ on this point. In particular,…

> the question of whether it is a sound basis for impeaching an elected president is not a simple one. Renowned legal scholars differ on this point. The fiscal responsibility law is a thing. Governors and mayors have been taken down from office for much less. These "renowned scholars" that you mention are all tied to the workers party so their views are absolutely biased. Even the Bar order of Brazil, knowingly left…

Impossible to address your first point without going into personal opinions, not fit for this forum.

About the other point, regarding the future of the country, I did not mean the impeachment going through would undermine our democracy - this sort of discussion has no place here. Just that the overall economical and political landscape is cloudy at best. Operation java-jato is likely a good thing, but a "Mani Pulite"-like outcome, with corrupt politicians passing essentially pro-corruption laws, and the ascension of an inept "strongman" (in italy it was Berlusconi) is something that can easily happen in the coming years.

Re: Brasília at Midnight

#73

Post by woliveirajr »

forinti wrote: post #42
ucaetano wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly the opposite of the history in Brazil. In the 8 years before PT took power, the country finally had stable economics, decreasing unemployment and increasing income levels.

The previous government had unemployment of 8.3% in its first year and 11.7% in its last year (and 12% inflation). PT was voted into power for a reason.

More than that. Try were voted for miraculous promises, took advantage of increased prices of commodities, and gave money in popular programs. Then lied about unemployment by changing criteria, kept controlled prices at popular levels against a long term development, and when this came out (like petrobras huge debt, and all money laundry), some people began to shout that it was "a coup", that all parties also stealed money and so PT shouldn't be punished etc.

Re: Brasília at Midnight

#74

Post by woliveirajr »

forinti wrote: post #67
andrenth wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Politics and economics are too skewed to the right in Brazil. This is the most absurd out of touch with reality statement I've read this week. Brazil has 30+ parties almost all with "social" or "socialist" in their name. It's 50 shades of red down here.

It is a matter of personal opinion, after all. Anyway, I took the trouble to enumerate the ten largest parties in the brazilian congress and got their political position from Wikipedia (so as not to corrupt it with my own ideas): PT - Centre-left; PMDB - Centre; PSDB - Centre (implemented neoliberal agenda in the 1990s); PP - Centre-right/Right; PSD - Centre-right; PR - Centre; PSB - Centre-left/Left; PTB - Centre; D…

Please give me some minutes to edit wikipedia skip you can get it right :-)

The "right" or "centre-right" would get votes from democrats with a big smile...

Re: Brasília at Midnight

#75

Post by andrenth »

brbrodude wrote: post #68
andrenth wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

State worshipping and school/university indoctrination are very real things in Brazil, though. The center-left that you mention is demonized as "neoliberals" by the extreme left here, so I'm not really sure what your point is about that.

I'm not convinced and it was not my experience. Plus it doesn't make any sense, nobody actually worships the state so this is already politically charged wording with little substance and it's what is used to bash people with, not for sincere discussion. If people want to be taken seriously they should use precise and neutral language as much as possible.

You know what is meant when we say "worship the state". You can't be naive to the point of thinking we mean people kneeling in the altar of the state.

But there is an undeniable anti-market anti-individual freedom anti-conservatism bias in Brazilian schools. Examples of that are readily available if you google for it.

Re: Brasília at Midnight

#76

Post by andrenth »

forinti wrote: post #69
andrenth wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So had they insisted in the same destructive policies you wouldn't consider it a coup? This line of reasoning makes no sense.

Which policies? Everyone has issues which are dearer to them. Mostly, I find Dilma's policies insufficient. Especially social ones (there are only 14 countries more unequal than Brazil, out of 176). But I don't find them 'destructive'.

Destroying Petrobras? Destroying the electric sector? Destroying the value of our currency? Destroying growth and at the same time keeping high inflation?

You didn't answer the question though. Would it not be a coup if the new president defended policies which you consider "sufficient"?

Re: Brasília at Midnight

#77

Post by geezerjay »

woliveirajr wrote: post #54
geezerjay wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There was a common headline at the time in newspapers: "apesar da crise", meaning "even though in a crisis", followed by the report of a new market/business sector record in profits. A couple of months ago in a conversation with a Brazilian colleague of mine, who has been living in europe for some years now, the subject of Brazil's crisis popped up. He told me that, at least when compared with the economic crisis e…

Your colleague is wrong. Deeply wrong. Crisis happens when unemployment is high (but government hides it, saying that anyone who is getting some governmental support isn't unemployed. And when prices rise. And when controlled prices are low against all the world market just to pump popularity... There are so many wrong and deceptive comments here, at news.y, that it really makes me sad about how much illusion was sol…

The thing is, Brazil's supposedly high unemployment rate peaks around 12%, which is quite close to structural unemployment.

Meanwhile in Spain the unemployment rate is around 22%.

You're unintentionally proved my point: Brazil's supposed crisis isn't a crisis at all when compared to what happened all across europe. A slight economic downturn doesn't make it a crisis.

Re: Brasília at Midnight

#78

Post by woliveirajr »

geezerjay wrote: post #77
woliveirajr wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your colleague is wrong. Deeply wrong. Crisis happens when unemployment is high (but government hides it, saying that anyone who is getting some governmental support isn't unemployed. And when prices rise. And when controlled prices are low against all the world market just to pump popularity... There are so many wrong and deceptive comments here, at news.y, that it really makes me sad about how much illusion was sol…

The thing is, Brazil's supposedly high unemployment rate peaks around 12%, which is quite close to structural unemployment. Meanwhile in Spain the unemployment rate is around 22%. You're unintentionally proved my point: Brazil's supposed crisis isn't a crisis at all when compared to what happened all across europe. A slight economic downturn doesn't make it a crisis.

My point is that this "12%" isn't real. It comes from the definition of "persons looking for a job and not finding one". A very precise definition that hides:

- all persons that had a job, lost it and now are just receiving help from the government (but aren't looking for a job)

- all those who are receiving benefits from the government to receive a minimum wage, and prefer to live in that situation than tho seek for a job

- the almost 50% (I think) that have informal jobs, so aren't looking for one but don't contribute to the government providence (the gov. account that provides money to the benefits)

Yes, I agree with you that it isn't like Spain. But it's because the govn. spent much money giving social benefits without some "financial exit" ahead.

Exactly like some people calling the changes a "coup" have their reasons, but it doesn't compare with what happened (or almost happened) in Turkey.

(And sorry if I can't express myself in a better way in English)

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