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Brasília at Midnight

evenmagazine.com

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Re: Brasília at Midnight

#61

Post by andrenth »

brbrodude wrote: post #35
olh wrote: post #3

This article is spot on. There is an important detail that sounds like conspiracy theory and that bothers me as a brazilian: much of the extent of the economical crisis was orchestrated with propaganda by sectors of our society engulfed in corruption charges (from briberies to tax evasion) after the global drop in commodities prices and suddenly investments halted by market fear and a real crisis took place (and then…

Rightists like to oversimplify and make it as if anyone who disagrees with them is brainwashed and stupid, I think it's a shame. The biggest problem to me is that the political crisis only use it seems will be to hand power over to the other side, without fixing or changing anything, the corruption will stay the same and the little reforms that led us here are gonna be rolled back, the new ones in power are sure to w…

I think your view of people who think differently from you is the one that's oversimplified.

This mentalitity of "everything will stay the same so let's do nothing" is harmful in my opinion. We must take down the current corrupt politicians, and if others replace them, we take them down too.

Re: Brasília at Midnight

#62

Post by forinti »

brguy wrote: post #58
forinti wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, austerity was applied only on the demand side (social spending and infrastructure), but the problem was precisely the demand side. The private sector didn't need more loans or tax cuts, they needed customers and profits.

Most of the budget is fixed by law, so those were pretty much the only areas where costs could be cut. Social and infrastructure spending was actually record high before the crisis hit, so to say everything was caused by austerity is misleading.

Well, I didn't say everything was caused by austerity. I said austerity made it worse.

Social and infrastructure spending might have been high, but I think they were actually insufficient. Politics and economics are too skewed to the right in Brazil. Look at our budget surpluses for the last few decades:

https://brasilfatosedados.wordpress.com/2014/12/07/3047-supe...

And then look at the UK's budget history:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-u_6bLBEcvus/VIL2bc4et6I/AAAAAAAAB7...

Even Thatcher had deficits all along.

Re: Brasília at Midnight

#63

Post by woliveirajr »

andrenth wrote: post #59
meira wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The defense had N opportunities to proof (and they proved) that Rousseff didn't commit any crime. But it doesn't matter, because it's not a real judgement. It's a theatrical judgement for stupid guys like you to have a justificativa. But yeah, no stupid personagens believe it. It was a coup. And I should have Said, in the beginning, first thing: Temer out.

Thanks for the ad hominem, it shows the depth of your arguments. LOL at "Temer out". This is really all that you people know how to do, right? "Itamar out", "FHC out", "Temer out"... It's only a coup attempt when it turns against you.

:-) there's some argument that could be used, but people don't know enough to use then except for the "that's a coup", "temer out" or any other crying...

Your comments, otoh, are well done. Voted up

Re: Brasília at Midnight

#64

Post by woliveirajr »

andrenth wrote: post #59
meira wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The defense had N opportunities to proof (and they proved) that Rousseff didn't commit any crime. But it doesn't matter, because it's not a real judgement. It's a theatrical judgement for stupid guys like you to have a justificativa. But yeah, no stupid personagens believe it. It was a coup. And I should have Said, in the beginning, first thing: Temer out.

Thanks for the ad hominem, it shows the depth of your arguments. LOL at "Temer out". This is really all that you people know how to do, right? "Itamar out", "FHC out", "Temer out"... It's only a coup attempt when it turns against you.

:-) there's some argument that could be used, but people don't know enough to use then except for the "that's a coup", "temer out" or any other crying...

Your comments, otoh, are well done. Voted up

Re: Brasília at Midnight

#65

Post by andrenth »

forinti wrote: post #62
brguy wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the budget is fixed by law, so those were pretty much the only areas where costs could be cut. Social and infrastructure spending was actually record high before the crisis hit, so to say everything was caused by austerity is misleading.

Well, I didn't say everything was caused by austerity. I said austerity made it worse. Social and infrastructure spending might have been high, but I think they were actually insufficient. Politics and economics are too skewed to the right in Brazil. Look at our budget surpluses for the last few decades: https://brasilfatosedados.wordpress.com/2014/12/07/3047-supe... And then look at the UK's budget history: http://3…

> Politics and economics are too skewed to the right in Brazil.

This is the most absurd out of touch with reality statement I've read this week.

Brazil has 30+ parties almost all with "social" or "socialist" in their name. It's 50 shades of red down here.

Re: Brasília at Midnight

#66

Post by andrenth »

forinti wrote: post #38
olh wrote: post #3

This article is spot on. There is an important detail that sounds like conspiracy theory and that bothers me as a brazilian: much of the extent of the economical crisis was orchestrated with propaganda by sectors of our society engulfed in corruption charges (from briberies to tax evasion) after the global drop in commodities prices and suddenly investments halted by market fear and a real crisis took place (and then…

What makes it clear to me that it is a coup is that the provisional government plans to implement policies and pass legislation that would never have a chance in an election.

So had they insisted in the same destructive policies you wouldn't consider it a coup?

This line of reasoning makes no sense.

Re: Brasília at Midnight

#67

Post by forinti »

andrenth wrote: post #65
forinti wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I didn't say everything was caused by austerity. I said austerity made it worse. Social and infrastructure spending might have been high, but I think they were actually insufficient. Politics and economics are too skewed to the right in Brazil. Look at our budget surpluses for the last few decades: https://brasilfatosedados.wordpress.com/2014/12/07/3047-supe... And then look at the UK's budget history: http://3…

> Politics and economics are too skewed to the right in Brazil. This is the most absurd out of touch with reality statement I've read this week. Brazil has 30+ parties almost all with "social" or "socialist" in their name. It's 50 shades of red down here.

It is a matter of personal opinion, after all. Anyway, I took the trouble to enumerate the ten largest parties in the brazilian congress and got their political position from Wikipedia (so as not to corrupt it with my own ideas):

PT - Centre-left; PMDB - Centre; PSDB - Centre (implemented neoliberal agenda in the 1990s); PP - Centre-right/Right; PSD - Centre-right; PR - Centre; PSB - Centre-left/Left; PTB - Centre; DEM - Centre-right (this I find hard to believe); PRB - Centre-right.

Re: Brasília at Midnight

#68

Post by brbrodude »

andrenth wrote: post #56
brbrodude wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Economics is not the only issue at play in this whole thing, there's a lot more. This talk of "state worship", "school indoctrination", plus the all sorts of mcarthism, left-dehumanizing(also important to note: center-left) and etc is 100% pure authoritharianism. If you're capable of being charitable to different arguments, seeing the nuances, recognizing the valid points someone from another point-of-view can provid…

State worshipping and school/university indoctrination are very real things in Brazil, though. The center-left that you mention is demonized as "neoliberals" by the extreme left here, so I'm not really sure what your point is about that.

I'm not convinced and it was not my experience. Plus it doesn't make any sense, nobody actually worships the state so this is already politically charged wording with little substance and it's what is used to bash people with, not for sincere discussion. If people want to be taken seriously they should use precise and neutral language as much as possible.

Re: Brasília at Midnight

#69

Post by forinti »

andrenth wrote: post #66
forinti wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes it clear to me that it is a coup is that the provisional government plans to implement policies and pass legislation that would never have a chance in an election.

So had they insisted in the same destructive policies you wouldn't consider it a coup? This line of reasoning makes no sense.

Which policies? Everyone has issues which are dearer to them.

Mostly, I find Dilma's policies insufficient. Especially social ones (there are only 14 countries more unequal than Brazil, out of 176). But I don't find them 'destructive'.

Re: Brasília at Midnight

#70

Post by brbrodude »

brguy wrote: post #57
brbrodude wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Economics is not the only issue at play in this whole thing, there's a lot more. This talk of "state worship", "school indoctrination", plus the all sorts of mcarthism, left-dehumanizing(also important to note: center-left) and etc is 100% pure authoritharianism. If you're capable of being charitable to different arguments, seeing the nuances, recognizing the valid points someone from another point-of-view can provid…

Well, I do think Brazil has a serious problem with state worship and school indoctrination. I can't remember being exposed to any sort of liberal economics thinking when I was at school or in college. Many of my colleagues never really questioned the ideas they learned, and some of them deepened them during their college years. I don't think that pointing this out as a problem is dehumanizing nor authoritarian. For o…

Well, the burden of proof is on the accuser, if people can make the case objectively then of course something should be done and educators themselves should care about the integrity of the knowledge, but it's not as simple as that, to call someone indoctrinated or brainwashed or indocrinator/brainwasher/dishonest is quite a tall call IMO, it's easy to claim, backing it up is another story... The reality I see is that most people just take sides without really reading stuff in depth or don't care at all about politics and that's it, to me that's true for all and I didn't leave school with any defined political positioning, Personally, I don't think state worship is a thing and what I said to the other reply above applies here, too.
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